Lessons

Lesson Info

Get Noticed

A real blast doing this and I hope you guys have learned a lot on wi I I feel like we've all made new friends and I hope you leave inspired well, after a time, everybody wants to know. Well, how am I going to get any work on how much you get paid to do all these cool things? One of the most important things that I want to impart on you is to make sure that you follow through for yourself with all of the images that you create and actually get out in front of people with them. We live in a fast world right now and everybody's relying completely and totally on the internet for the reach, and I think that's important that you have a stage presence there and that you work as much as you can on delivering your connections in that way and maybe try to meet new people in that way. I have entire jobs called me called in may introduce themselves conversed, styled, set up in booked on facebook and on twitter, and I've made business deals even on those avenues, but there's plenty of people that e...

xist around us that don't do that as much because they have other work obligations that don't allow that. There's different people now set up to run those areas of the business and sometimes you might think you're leaving a message from somebody, but you're really not so even though you make that connection don't totally rely on it, so I'm going to share with you some of the things that I do that seem to make a difference you khun, take thes, enroll them into how you see them fitting into your own space if possibility, I'm going to give you some ideas on how to meet new people that might want to do these photo shoots tell you how to print some things to leave behind you have one chance and our business to make a first impression, and it needs to be that one time needs to be when you make that impact. So b prepare for it when you finally get the chance to get in front of someone. You know, if you've been chatting with him on facebook and you finally get the chance to go and see them, you want to leave them with something physical that you can leave behind. Um, I still do mailers and books and all kinds of things, and we're going to delve right into that, but the first thing is I did a little bit of interviewing before I came on to this our process, I spoke to my accountant, who handles several celebrity photographers and celebrities and models and actors I asked him a lot of cool questions. I interviewed a lot of people that are in acting and modeling agencies that I've known for years talked other photographer friends of mine that do extremely well in their business, and I compared my notes to theirs of what I was doing to see if I was still on par with what I thought was the right thing to be also doing at the same time, and they agreed my accountant will have made the most interesting amount of information that I'm going to share in. It inspired me to talk to you about some of the things that I think and some of it's motivational, but I'm calling these personal challenges for you to go away with just probably fifteen things here on the list that I want to talk to you about. First of all, I think you got from me and the lighting skills and artistic delivery of what we've been doing all week don't drive to be a photographer or an ordinary photographer. I want you to strive to be the best photography in your area of expertise. You've either got to stand out or blend in and become a mass quantity shooter when price points come about you, kanae either charge a lot charge of medium amount. And charge a little. In the beginning, you're going to feel like you've got to charge a little to get noticed, but you, khun, slowly push that up. Most importantly, if you describe if you strive to become the very, very best, eventually that money will come to you, and then you can dagger your price up. As time goes on, the most important thing you can have is have a logo and make a brand and then keep it. Um, I have changed my identity through colors through the years, but I've never changed my whole overall look, an impact and field, because once you are known it's, really hard to read a brand and redirect someone to you back to your logo again, I have people that call me now and say, I shot with you, you know, fifteen years ago, I want to shoot with you. Now. Now, why don't you shoot my children? And if they couldn't find me or they lost my name or if I changed my name, how would they find me now to redirect their business back toward me? So the most important thing is, once you create that you can't stay consistent, you don't see like a t and t and big companies like that changing their entire identity. I think belle kes is one of the few stores have actually saying change a logo in coca cola, and I think they're big enough they can get away with that. I could not ever afford to recharge my energy unity to the point where I get lost in the shuffle, so when you get started, are going to set out on your own, you want to do your homework, and by that I mean, see what's around you, research who's doing what you're doing, you know, not just in your way immediate neighborhood, if there's a twenty mile radius in another city close by, you want to know who the competition is and find out where everybody is going to shoot the kind of pictures that you're interested in building your business model around. I know what's out there and what the price points are, and then when you begin your business, you will know exactly how you fit it in and differentiate yourself a little bit from who's gonna be competing with you, and if you pay attention, you guys can actually work together and help each other rather than working against each other. And when I say the fabulous I mean always be is gracious and wonderful as you possibly can your client's potential people you might want to work with when you go in your interviews and go to see them to leave your toe, leave behind your promotional materials, even if you're just dropping by to see them never overstay your welcome making impact and then be on your way. Hospitality and kindness is something that people just don't do very often. They don't say thank you, they don't, they're they run in jeb a mail in your box or send you, you know, I know they don't even it's a dear lou. So nice to meet you today. I try to say thank you over and over and over. I give presents for people that I work with it bend over backwards to give me work if somebody stops, it gives me something that I may not have had to pay for. Even ten times over, I do return favors and photo shoots, but I don't offer a discount to the first time somebody comes to shoot with me. I give discounts after you've been with me a few times, and I usually offer an additional shots when I'm doing a shoe shine on, I say, shine on, carry on with the image you set for yourself and try to be consistent with what you put out there that you say you are try not to be sad. What was me don't sit down at the bar with your other colleagues, makeup artists and hairdressers and say, gosh, you know, I'm struggling because if you say those things guess what they're going to do is go back home and think of a way to get past you. They wonder if they think the worst, so you want to present the best, be positive, never allow your clients, did nate, to think for a moment that you might not believe in them or think that they're all that you've got to overcome yourself, you might be shooting somebody that he really is driving you batty to be around, but you still have to make the best of it there's all kinds of people in this world and all kinds of people that need photographs, so you have to just get past it all. So, it's, how you make people feel, I think, is the biggest impact you can make when you're shooting now beyond getting the job when you're shooting them, hold onto that and never let that go, and when I say work it, I mean, you have to get out there and work it. So you've got all your stuff on your facebook. You posted a couple of images you've been stalking around to all of your clients saying hi watching when other people are doing complimenting photographers, you know, that are in your field close by you. Wow, that was an amazing shoot. You should be really proud of yourself. The reason why you want to do that is what if your books and somebody calls and they've gotta have something, you'd be really great if you could send them to somebody that you know is reputable. Once you do that for someone else, they will do the same for you. If you keep that door open, if you close it and act nervous, you're never going to get any help when you need it. I have paired up with other photographers to do a job for a client at different times when there was not enough time for me to do it all. And we both want so you sometimes can rally with your best photographer as your buddy are your colleague across town who might be able to help you when I say give thanks to those two help to you I hate holiday time are in january or whatever time you choose to give thanks to someone who supported you throughout the year if there's somebody that's sending you a model agent sending you a ton of headshots to work with and you're making money it's totally awesome to say thank you for that you don't have to give them money take them to a nice dinner send them a card with something in it that they can enjoy at their own time of the year don't forget these people never take it for granted if you dont say thanks filled me moving on to somebody else who is going to be doing that for you some people are great at that stuff on next thing you know you've lost your client because you weren't paying attention. So be mindful of your craft in the trans and your craft that might be changing and expanding and also be aware of trends and technology don't show up shooting with untold camera unless yours is in the shop so may never make your success or allow your sex has to go to your head so you're an egotistical maniac and nobody wants to be around you I think sometimes new success brings that I've done a lot of things in my life have been a lot of famous people's presence in their homes taking pictures, and I don't have a big ego anymore. I'm very happy and proud of what I've accomplished, and I will talk about it if people ask me, but I don't feel the need to intimidate anyone in that process, these air good things that happen to me, why should I beat up anybody about that? So I think you know, if you could be positive and warm to everybody that you come in, talk contact with and try to make each person that you made, whether you're interviewing for a magazine editorial or shooting a boudoir portrait, if you make them feel like you truly care about them, that relationship really goes unnoticed. So miller's lab is somebody that I've used is a support mechanism for me, a cz I've traveled all over the country and leaving the country doing my jobs, I used them to make portfolio small portfolios that I can carry in my bag. I'm going to show you some of those in a moment I use them when I'm making promotional pieces, I try to dio three postcards a year. And I spend a fair amount of time designing the cards and directing what's on the car's exactly to the clientele that I want to reach for the job. So I have a glamour, a boudoir fashion lifestyle, and I fold them up showing the logo and design on the inner ear's inside so that they're forced to pull it out the envelope and look at all the pictures before they get to my name in the middle it's interesting enough that they leave it sitting on their desk and I never see it go to the trash, so and it's also small enough and expensive enough if it's in a decent envelope and mail when I order the postcard, it comes with a beautiful envelope and my address is typed on the back and I go through a box to say order two thousand and every time I go through a slow time right before that, I see that coming. I'm watching my calendar, they go in the mail if you shot with me last year are right you hand written note, put it in there with it and send it out. I still send the postcard because nobody else is doing it. They think everything is on twitter, instagram, facebook, but you have to be smarter than that when you meet someone and make a connection to him, you forever are connected to them. When you write on my facebook, you might say, hai, I know that person, but you don't really know that person you've got to get in front of them any which way you can. So I do still do everything I carry these books with me, every where I'm going to go if I think I'm going to be shooting men or fashion, I take this portfolio with me, um comes in a box wrapped in tissue paper, and I put some of my favorite images in there and the pages are very started. You could touch it over and over, and it never gets really dirty. And when I take these things around, people are not expecting me to have this anymore, because people don't show physical printed books anymore. I suggest that you do it, there's, nothing more this really awesome than touching something that leather that feels really great. And this particular book has a matte finish on the pages that seems, teo, just be on my finger on the page and opening here. But these air, you know, from the alice story that you're featuring here and it's, just stunningly printed on the pages lay flat there's no cracking or anything like that. It's just stunning. So blue I can confirm having played with them. Have a look at them. They're beautiful. Could you tell us a little bit about this size of each one? About the fulda built the folding postcard. That's kind of the books? Yes, these air about a three by five. You know, over the years of me printing postcards, I've made really big ones that it didn't get placed in an envelope when I lived in new york, I would place I would make something so big that the art director would get this giant poster, and there was no way that it could be edited down before the client would get there. And now I put them inside these envelopes because I know they're going to get it like it's a personal, handwritten thank you notes size, so believe it or not, there are people at the desk at the agency is that kind of pear all of the male down and make it in a more reasonable, acceptable stay. Most of the magazines have three to five editorials. They're going to shoot and they get thousands of postcard. So the only way you can get around in his hand, address it and not put a sticker on it, and you have to make it look like it's a personal note to someone so this could be a thank you card, it could be anything you want it so I'm always trying to be smart to get around around that loop so they would have to totally open it, go through the envelope and decide whether or not it was worthy to get onto the desk, and I carry those in my pocket, like, if I'm going to a cocktail party will have my bag with four or five of those in the back. People want to see my work rather than pulling out my phone, nobody wants to go to a cocktail parties don't over in the corner and look at your cell phone, but if you hand them something like that, don't walk around with it, it fits in a man's coat pocket. It was all well thought out in that way, so I have a wife style, one that goes out on occasion, but not nearly as much as the boudoir in glamour. After I send them out, I usually get about forty calls of people that were willing to see me in person, so then that sets up, you know, my next year's worth of work, so mailings, they print the cards, they've helped me make decisions on the paper, made suggestions that get personally involved, have very unique and unusual portfolios, it's up to you to lay it out and put the images in it that you think you're going to bring you the work, but the actual quality of the book you can kind of pick through and choose it doesn't need to look like a wedding album. It could look like a classic photographers book so as you connect with your neighbors and the fifteen mile area that you can actually get to for an interview I will extend that to an hour and a half somewhere could drive to that all go see including all past clients even the ones that you thought would never work with you again last night we were talking about like potential when you go to see books, you go to see someone you have a great relationship with them and you talk to him once and then you don't hear from him for like among men six months pass and you think I do something wrong usually it's not that you did something wrong you cannot take anything personal do the male and do this stuff keep right on going and keep being the squeaky wheel b positive and have a great attitude and keep showing them new material something will turn for you if you put the right things and in front of them if you guys are stressed and you need help you working by yourself, you think you can afford anyone there's always a great way, tio advance yourself by hiring interns an extra set of hands will help you stuff these envelopes you can hand right the envelope covers you know in the evening when you're sitting at home mail out fifty of them at a time stay busy stay in front of people so in the background one of the lovely things that miller's does is they have all these other services they have a place called zen portfolio where you can upload and design your own books. Valerie and I were talking about that tobin this week and how awesome that is, um I have a storefront and book him online and book him online is a booking service so once people call me and they decide hey, I really want to do three shoots with ur head shot or whatever it is in the background I designed my entire storefront with a pull down bar and they can go to that and basically set up and pay for their own photo shoots if that's what they want, they can find out about makeup and hair wardrobe styling it says something they're interested in and it makes that process so much more efficient I'm not sitting there going over all of that ask them what they want to do and selling them you know, sometimes I can get off the phone and I feel like I've been selling a car because of all the questions it allows may I could spend my twenty minutes talking to them about the shoot we could talk about what kind of photography they want, and then I presented to them in such a way that all they have to do is go there and set it all up, and they usually get off the phone and go straight there and pick and choose what they want art department they have designed and digital artwork facilities if you just need somebody to help us, you got a catalogue and you had three, four hundred images you need to read touch in a very short amount of time. If you don't have the staff to help you pull that off, you need to know somebody that can help you do simple clean up. Some people tell me that they don't even have time to process out their images. They have somebody photo shoot's going on is you're going to need to have that backup system tested, tried true, and I have to tell you they've been over backwards to help me on several occasions. I had a big, huge catalogue a couple of years ago, we had three hundred fifty pictures to turn around, like two and a half days you've gotta have, you know, I have an extra set or two or three arms and legs to finish something of that nature. They also have all kinds of classes and things that they used their my biggest connection has been the book I'm online thing now highly recommend that if you want to post your prices, really he's each operate minutes light, go in, change all the settings anytime you want. You put descriptions of your photo shoot, I have mindset, so that sends an email to them a couple days before reminding them of all the things they're supposed to bring, and I don't even have to tell them I could have them send directions on where the photo shoot is on dh, then it lets me know that it's communicated with them. So four mailings a year, january, march, august around the holiday time, and I do a lot of specials here in there for the glamour boudoir and for the head shots. The headshot thing will inspire business. If you find yourself not doing the head shots, you've been doing everything, and you have a lot of business going on around the holidays. The best thing you could do is offer something for the holidays, not just to the actors but other people who might need something as a christmas gift, so that being said, you can save yourself quite a bit of money on dh make yourself an extra bit of money. So two times a year, you also want to construct new client list that you would like to work with you here, other people saying they're shooting for these people locally. How do you get in there? How do you get to know these people find out who's working for them, find a way to get the parties get in front of these people, make it your goal and self assigned yourself that justus muchas all this creativity I'm suggesting to take on, the more people you meet and the more groups of people you get involved with, the better the chances of you meeting somebody and an area that you didn't know if there's a group of ladies that you want to work with and shoot headshots and boudoir and glamour shots, you need to find a way to make something happen to meet. Now I'm really close to a lot of the pr people that are in the two cities that I visit the most when I'm struggling with what I really want to meet this new area of women I hear about these ladies that do these different things, how I meet them, yeah, who are you working with? And she'll tell me she's, working with restaurants or working with hair salons these are people that can actually be helpful to you, so trying to create your own parties, trying to create your own new working environment audience that's not may be known by your other by your other colleagues in the same business, so when your your website itself I completely do an overhaul on my website every two years, I'd completely make it new and fresh keeping images turned over at least two major times in the year shooting for my book for five times a year, and I say, shame for my book like a week, I'll spend just making all kinds of great new things that are inspiring to me to show other people those same images that select ones or the ones that I might bring into these advertising materials they're looking at, then I will pre aimed at least two books. I made really large books for a while and they're heavy, and this is much easier for me to put in my bag and curie with me somewhere or in my suitcase when I'm going to go shoot a wedding, I'll goto shoot a wedding with my friends, take this too rehearsal dinner in my bag, and then when somebody asked, tells me there's somebody else here that wants to meet you, I have something to show, so always try to be prepared clubs, groups outside of the photography industry, there's art, gilles, creative clubs, all kinds of things that are going to help you, me other artistic people that might help you produce the chutes, but you want to kind of get into the people that have the money to hire you, so start looking at the other people you know in your life that inspire you in other ways maybe it's, other other clubs and groups that exist for women like there's women in film that's, another connecting point for photographers that want to get out, get in front of people outside the artist community, connect through your groups like the s and p the p p a and the a and there's also meet up groups and they'll be made up groups that focus around in the different areas of the interest for your photography that's a good way to also find out who is up coming in your industry so you can kind of keep an eye out on who's growing hi work in teams with a lot of other photographers. I have about fifteen friends if I need help with something like I said earlier, I might pair up with one or two I find out if I get a call for something and I'm truly not suited for the job. What are something to be able to say? You know, I would love to help you on this, but you really should go and shoot with someone, so they're a better person for shooting food and people than me so no being okay with that you don't have to say yes to every job that passes, but knowing he was a good connecting point might make you the right choice for them later with your honesty social marking and kept staying connected is important if that's what you're actually doing when you get on the internet with that I try to make it a point to do the very best to connect with students from my class to other makeup and hair people once a week I tried to sit down and look at all the report folios that they post online or on facebook or where that is find people that are inspiring to me they're doing something that I've always wanted to do but can't quite get there with the team I have set so I grow from that I try to connect with people that I think I'd like to to shoot for the future I want to see those people in person I want to stay is tight as I can to the photographs I have on my web sites and on my facebook pages I make sure I watch what's being posted about me if it's something I'm really excited about it I want to see I make sure that it gets reposted I'm using it in the right way and I also want to make sure that I connect with new friends that I want to meet or if I see somebody's going to an event that I want to know about it, I might have gotten looked over for wanna reconnect that way? Um, I don't know if you guys pay any attention to what the pr companies dio in your area, but pr companies do a lot of work with head shots and doing business development for other businesses, those air that's the time when they're most likely going to hire photography. So just like I mentioned using bashing someone who might, choosing someone to shoot food, they might want all of the people that work in the restaurant or in the new establishment covered with those kind of photographs, you just have to be paying attention constantly what's going on around you. There's, a business chronicle magazine in atlanta, called the atlanta business car nicol and I used to try to read that every single week so I could pay attention aware the energy and focus wass to meet new people that I wouldn't even know we're so chocolate shop setting up down the straight for me, amazing chefs, they've been on tv, he would know about it unless you saw it in this magazine or have the contact to meet them. Um, that's a really awesome tip, I've never heard that before, like there are a lot of things that we here often and that's a new one that's really cool? I love that you've got to find a way to get in front of the people that need your services and then those usually they're going to be really pushing to get those pictures out there, and if you could get photo credits and all of that, the next thing you know, you're seeing your witness shared so beyond all of that as much as you can, you want to try to make a physical presence and all the ad agencies where you can get in, you might want to find a way to meet people on that aren't necessarily the head of the creative. If you want to try to meet some of the people that work there and let your photographs to be seen there, start doing your research and find out who these people are and who makes the decisions and then slowly work your way into getting a chance to be in front of them. Then you start doing your mailings and let some postcards pop up that are sent to their attention. And again, you know if somebody's not calling you back right away don't ever form of judgment. Because sometimes it's nothing to do with you or the quality of work that you do it has to do with the fact that that job they have or description on their hand might not be cut out for you what if they're working on a home depot project and your gorgeous glamorous images come across the plate they don't need to talk to you right now they're going to decide out of all the activities going on what's most important in their day they don't need to call you and say look I'm sorry thanks but no things so another thing that's fun to dio and I paired up with several pr people and agents that handle actors, models and that's type of people that are in the same industry is myself and I've offered to create my own social events with them you know once every two or three months we have certain cocktail parties something by the pool will create little shows where we show slide shows and fashion things that might have an impact or fashion cocktail parties where we have a little meet and greet and have all kinds of people come that wouldn't normally have the chance to meet each other I've met tons of models that way to shoot I've also met other people from magazines and other kinds of companies that would also into pyre ing me sometimes you don't get the result from it that immediately it takes a while I'll hear from people say I met you what such and such the party you had it so and so restaurant I'm ready to do my headshots now where I'm ready to do my advertising shot or I'm my partner and I finally got our business plan together we need these pictures so plant seeds all along the way addition to the ones that you're doing while you're on facebook and so forth and if you can find a way to make yourself social at every event that there is possibly on those list in your town where you are sometimes you're going to find yourself going to cocktail parties three or four times a week especially the holiday to get in front of these people you're gonna wanna have all this stuff with you when you go um you're not going to just wish that they go to your website after you say hi here this here I am here's my business car try to find a way to put something in their hand that has more to it than just your name and your phone number. Sometimes when I come home from events I have a pocket full of cards and I have to sit down and officially go through every one of them and remember what I said to them all but that's important that you do that and you just want to stay connected the best you can so some other things that you can do is to inspire the clients that shot with you before that you know loved your work but they're just not connecting with you right now you've seen on mount on facebook there are doing other things they might have had a child got married, moved away come back all for all kinds of products you khun dio like I said, the first thing would be to create some sort of social plan you can offer discount codes give cards q r codes not on your website for the site to list people back to you, but maybe you make gift cards that you can give to people when you go to an event. I was at a cocktail party last summer and a woman gave me it I haven't even high dollar discount to goto her spot that's a lot of money to go to a spa I'm sure she's giving me a mini version of what was offered but I thought that was really it had value to me I didn't want to put that business card down and lose it I kept that and eventually I went back it took me a little while to be able to get to that part of the country and go to her again but I did do that embarked on that and the goal here is they get into your space and they buy other things also if you like to go to fundraising events you want to also try to put postcards and mailers and design cool things that people can auction off when that person comes in get them involved in shooting mohr with you show them all of your work think big you want to challenge yourself my accountant actually suggested this he said that most people self limiting themselves on what their potential is because they don't think they can do it they automatically seem I can't I won't I don't know up scared think big challenge yourself to be in the spotlight make yourself so noticeable with your images and with advertising materials that people have to know who you are I can remember a point in my career I was still plugging along like in my mind like I just started like I was a little guy in my head and I had all these accomplishments are ready but they come they go you know we still have to keep that well and the cog turning how do you keep in front of people and I went into an advertising agency and I I met this really happy guy at the desk and he goes oh lou everybody knows who you are and I'm like you're kidding he goes no you know we see how hard you work it you know since you're advertising materials that we know who you are we want to see what you're doing you're kind of setting the bar, so if you think like that will keep you motivated to turn the stuff out when you go home and you feel disappointed for things when things are not happening, if you'll use the same energy to go create a few things, you'll find that that happiness will propel you forward and you see that you've done all these things to make yourself your life better, you know, I'm a single person with no kids, so it's easy for me to say that to you guys, and I know some of you have liked to have four kids cricket, how many kids just too it's a lot of responsibility, and I'm sure you feel that you have to spend a lot of time on that. I'm sure it's a double edged sword you fillmore motivated to work harder because you have kids and then it's like, well, how am I going to spend the time I'm going to manage the time? I try to find a time to do all of this stuff in the morning before I ever go to work so that I am that's behind me and I know of at least tried my level best to get the attention, to connect with the people if I know somebody's excited about working with me. I've got to keep thinking, all right? I told this person I would call them. Did I call them it's, a constant effort to keep it all rolling? It kind of I'm going, but I highly suggest that you try is many avenues as possible to get all of the plates balancing on sticks so that everybody is going to call you hopefully at once, I believe that might be it. That is a fantastic thing for all those that I love it. We would love to ask you a few questions certainly don't mind great, one that has come in a couple times, but more than a couple times over the two, three days from m r photography and christy elaine photo others. What would be the one thing you would recommend for a photographer making connections or getting their work in front of publications? As a glamorous boudoir photographer who was looking to shoot for publications like pipe, playboy or maxim or other glamour, produce a body of work that's really tight and concise, with really beautiful people? Those magazines all want to see interesting light down in very tasteful ways. They are inundated with people calling on them, and you have to do something that's a little different, a little special, I would try everything you can to find out exactly who's in control of those positions maxim's probably has several art directors on staff, but you're going to want to show them a variety of things if the work is strong enough, they may even be willing to buy photographs from you. Playboy hires photographers on approval and once they feel confident that the photographer is going toe handle themselves in a perfect way put not only produce quality images but be a perfect host to the photo shoot situation than usually they will contact them and bring them into the loop. Playboy now works in groups they have a producer, stylist, videographer and still photographer is a team and everything is handled in l a so you may want to reach out in that direction. I worked for a gentleman named jeff cohen and he was the a creative director there for many, many years and he's now retired from there, but he still acts is a consultant. I'm sure you could find him on facebook and say hello, but they're always looking for something really special in both cases sexy, beautiful, polished, elegant, strong personality but really sophisticated person I love those words thank you that was really helpful I love that it comes back to the work do the work yeah that's there wanting to pictures the magic pictures is what they want and a great person at the same time right now. All right, next question from ashley de miller photography, who asked when starting off what's a good price points so you get paid for your time and work but still build your portfolio along the way. And this is a question that comes up here quite often that creative life, because so many people are starting out and they're trying to branch out and over into clients the first thing our commercial clients and what kind of a price point, what kind of actual photo shoot? Maybe? Are we talking about bush's talking, personal, personal client got it got it offended because the range is wildly different and it's also wildly different all over the country. There's no magic number for that? I can't tell you if you start out low, you're going to get stuck there, but you have to find out what the medium range is. When I started out to do your homework, you need to find out what being delivered from every aspect within, like a two mile right to to mile twenty mile radius of you or I would say people will drive an hour, probably I think if you're really great, um, you have one chance to make a first impression, so I wouldn't even start charging into you have a wow factor on your website. And you have the something to show that has merit that people would actually pay for if you've got like you shot five, six people in the rate the return of what you're shooting is one and fifty sixty images like that you're not ready to charge you need to be at a point where you can deliver the goods relatively quickly and reasonably you need to have your reputation sort of together I think when I started going toe I'm thinking back to when I started I think charged like fifty dollars a look or something like that and if you think about it I've been doing this for thirty five years that was really not that's not doing it for free it's making it something somebody does three looks still two hundred bucks and to start out and make that kind of money for the time there's not another job they could be doing at the same time I'm probably bringing that kind of money so start I would do my homework and find out what the market will bear in the area that they live when the portfolio has enough versatility and variety in it quality is there then you can start kind of urging upto what the market will bear from your uh what's going on around you and then you could start to be competitive but you have to I would say after about a year maybe a shooting regularly so if somebody like going from one job into shooting full time if you're shooting on the weekend you're shooting every weekend and you feel like you need another day or two during the week and there's a demand that's the kind of time when you were like ready to jump swam in the ocean full of that another question one from seth coyle photography could you kind of generally described your shot list when you are shooting for a client? Are you looking for beauty three quarter full body horizontal or are you just exploring and seeing what comes up to have a preconceived list of shot thing going for it? I'm assuming you would mean like if an individual called me wanted to do something like we've been doing for the past couple days I try to give everybody that pays to shoot with me a head shot or a beauty shot first for some reason that ends up what they use first they want that close up shot of themselves so in every shoot like I usually sell I don't like to set up the lights for lesson two pictures I don't even want to stop what I'm doing for lesson two pictures so it's usually two three or four and I schedule that between three to five hours so it makes sense takes about I want how for the hair and makeup and then I spent about thirty forty minutes on each shot and I try to continuously move the person start out with beauty, then I rolled down to three quarter than two full length. Sometimes I'll see people or live them down, it depends on the person's body and how they're built if they've got killer legs, I'm going to be doing all kinds of shots with the legs, and sometimes when I'm willing to just do whatever it takes to take continue shooting, if it's something I'm really enjoying just like the head shots most of the people that you shoot for actors or for starting models, they they don't need us many fashion shots, because the market has kind of flattened out into a lifestyle a little bit, so most of the people you see going into the industry from that angle are going to want more smiling, natural looking shots, showing all the features of their body. So if someone calls and that's the type of shoot we're doing, I start out with a headshot on a couple of different examples usually do one that picks up on the contrast of their eyes. The next one shows off the colors in their hair, and then I'll work into the body and the three quarter and then try to get this much emotion personality driven out of that is possible, so I'm going to say two hundred fifty shots I might shoot on three maybe five hundred, if I do four, five looks, and I'm trying to inspire people to shoot as they go along. And the price points are going to met range, basically, depending what the market will bear and you're, you know, experience he's in the industry now backto the starting area. When can you raise your prices when everybody starts calling you and creep it up? But I wouldn't do it more than ten percent of the time, because if you shock people, you're going to end up working like, four, five times a year and never have the work that you're looking for. So you have there's a fine line and going too far with pricing.