Lessons

Lesson Info

Document Your Client Intake Process

We are going to dig into the nitty gritty of figuring out what your product is going to be, what your asset is going to be on, how you can incorporate the things that you do best about your service or whatever it is that you d'oh into that products in it, you know, so that essentially your success is insured, and the first piece of that is really documenting your client intake process and this it becomes the answer to the question where to begin. And this is the question that I am asked most often when it comes to creating a product, I don't even know where to, sir start got the service that I've been delivering for years. I've worked with lots of clients, or maybe I haven't worked with lots of clients, how do I know where to start? And lily are host was actually telling me a break that she had a little breakthrough moment during our earlier lessons. And lily, I want you to tell me about that because it's a really interesting way to think about turning your service into your product be...

cause you're thinking about now, not not your service, but sort of another part of your life that is involved with the work that you do, so I'll let you take it from there, thanks, tara. So we were taught wi I led you into the green room and I told her like, wow, I hada grilli great insight so thank you so much because when you're talking about your how to name your you're unfair advantage I kept wondering like what? Thatwas for me because I do many things I'm a writer and a producer I write for discovery channel and produced a couple shows for them I'm here hosting for creative live and I'm also an actor singer and I have my own theatre company so there's kind of a lot of different facets and so I thought about well how I'm going to turn my service my main service which is writing and producing into a business and I feel like well, you know what's my unfair advantage like I mean I do good work on time but I think a lot of people do that right um I produce good work but they're all a lot of great producers out there and I don't know if I want teo build my own business surrounding that anyway yeah and then I thought about you know, offering a course to actors on how to have a career in acting and then I thought, well that's a great idea except actors don't have any money so I don't know if that's a great business model or business idea um I'm like okay, well what you know what is my unfair advantage because they said I couldn't really find one that was surrounding those two services that I offer. So then I thought, well, what people keep telling me? And oftentimes in my work, especially in theatre, my theatre company, ferocious lotus, we just did a big production, and somebody will come up to me and said, you know, how do you do everything you do like your mom? You're an actor, you were in the theater company or a writer, you're on creative live, like, how do you do all this stuff? And they really there are other moms who just are perplexed by what my life is like, and I'm not usually make a joke, and I'm like, oh, I don't sleep very much, but, you know, it's more than that, like, I feel like I haven't had a process in a step by step process and creating my maps and making my dreams come true what I wanted to do, like creating an actor's career, creating a theater company, being a writer to help support that. And so what I what I came up with an unfair advantage, this maybe that's it not so much the service, but what sort of is the umbrella toe all the services I offer, what is how I created? What? How I created that life where I'm managing to be a mom and do all these things and maybe the course is helping other moms who want to have it all, quote unquote figure out how they can also use that same process of step by step, career mapping, mind mapping, planning to do what they want to dio because so many moms asked me what that isthe yeah, eso we've talked a lot about finding what that processes that that comes naturally to you, you know that intuitive understanding of building something, building a life in this case step by step by step on dh, formalizing it as a way to understand how to create your product. So you've pulled that not out of a particular service that you offer the work that you d'oh but out of how you've crafted your whole life, and I think that that's awesome, and I think that it's probably a really helpful for some people out there because a lot of times the products are unfair advantage. The ways that we can create assets in our business is not they don't always come directly out of the service that we have to offer sometimes they come from something much more tangential, like you know, with jen creating the what if conference it's, not a conference about wedding photography it's not even a conference about photography at all uh, what you discovered as your unfair advantage, something that you absolutely used in your photography business allowed you to create something completely different that was actually capable of getting much more traction and creating much bigger transformations then you'd otherwise been able to get to at that point. And so if your question is, where do I even start? How do I figure out what I want to focus on, even if that's not necessarily the service that I'm offering right now, that's what we're just about to dio so the place that I really like to start is with why clients come to you in the first place and how you decide the best way to help them. So why people come to you in the first place and how you decide the best way to help them sometimes it's not clients, sometimes it's other moms sometimes it's, other photographers or other creative entrepreneurs. But what is it that makes people attracted to you? What is it that makes people attracted to the work that you do? The results that you get? Why are they choosing to communicate with you? Why are they choosing to reach out with you out to you, and then how do you help them decide? R how do you decide the best way to help them? What goes through your mind when you're thinking okay, this person has this gold this gold this school and how am I going to help get them there? That is the beginning of your process and really if you didn't think about the whole rest of your process, this would even be enough we're going to we're going to go through and do the whole enchilada but this man this can open up all sorts of insights, so the first step to this is actually looking back through your emails and they know that could be a little scary I try and not think about my emails much as humanly possible, but your e mails are full of gold in this case we're talking literal gold we're going to turn this, we're going to turn your emails into revenue and profit and income, so look back through your emails why if people reached out to you in the first place or maybe like lily, people haven't reached out via email they've come up to you at a show at a conference at a gallery opening and they've said something they've started a conversation about what their problem is and why they find what you do so interesting you can also of course go back through in person conversations, phone calls in take conversations and you can think about what people have come to you for why they've contacted you and how you've helped how you've decided how to help them when you go back through those emails there's a lot of different things that you could look for your customers often share their problems or frustrations and I know that this can be a sticking point in and of itself people often say well, I don't know how my service serves a solves a problem you know, because we're so focused on the idea that we like to teach or the conversation that we liketo have with people but absolutely your customers are sharing their problems and frustrations with you they're also sharing objections you know, overcoming objections is a big part of sales um and often one of the reasons that were so good at one toe one sales sales on the phone is because people will state an objection and we couldn't just answer it right away. Well when you start drawing attention to that piece of your client intake process you can build in getting over objections into the product itself into your sales process into the marketing process into the very connection points that you make with people so that objections aren't a problem anymore and people are sharing the stuff with you it's just out their hopes and goals obviously people are sharing this is what I want to achieve I'm contacting you because I'd really like tio double my revenue, I'm contacting you because I'd really like teo, I'd really like to know how you get so many scrap scrap booking projects done. I'm contacting you because I need a website that actually gets me results not that just looks really good, right? So they tell us what their goals are. They tell us what their hopes are and that's really important for understanding how they're going to use our product. Of course they ask questions, they have asked lots of questions. Are you writing them all down? Do you know what those questions are on? They also offer us other solutions that they're considering or that they've used in the past. One thing that we forget about this is part of that solo entrepreneurship problem, too, is we? We tend to think of ourselves in a market of one. Well, no one else does what I do, you know, cory said earlier he's, one of three people who is teaching the fine art business the way he does but he's not in the market of three he's in a market of thousands of people who are trying to help a fine artists make money or selling solutions in that area, not to mention also the market that's full of art schools are business schools, galleries all of those different things are competitors to your product, right so people tell us this they say, hey, I've worked with so and so in the past, they took this course before, and I really liked this about it, but I still have a question about this or they might say, you know, this is the process I've been trying to use to solve this problem on my own, uh, and it hasn't been working out really well, so if you think you're in a market of one, I highly encourage you to go back through your your client intake emails and figure out what other solutions they've considered, what else have they tried to solve their problems? Because I guarantee you the vast majority of your customers for the vast majority of your customers, you were not the first thing they tried, so just forget that now that's a key piece of what they share so problems or frustrations, objections, hopes and goals, questions, other solutions, their canoe centering this information I will absolutely shape the way you go about creating your product, creating marketing that works and creating a sales process that you can really automate and remove yourself from. So during this, during this process, where you're communicating with the prospect with a brand new potential client, you share some things, too. You share what you know you could help them achieve. Oftentimes when I'm talking to a brand new client on the phone, you know, someone who's just signed up for quiet power strategy, I share with them a goal they may not have considered for themselves. They might say, well, this is what I'd like to achieve in the program, and also, well, here's, what I saw when I thought about your business and thought about how we can help you. I saw this school for you. Wow, you want a snail a sale, tell them you can help them with an even bigger goal. Then they thought they were coming to you with. All right, so you tell them what you what you can help them achieve. You tell them how your process overcomes their objections again when I'm on a sales call for quiet power strategy often. You know, people say well, this is this has been a problem that I have in the past I'm not sure that this is possible and so I'll pull out actually a piece of my product of my program and I'll say you know this tool that the chief initiative the chief initiative can help you get over that sense of overwhelmed that you have in your business so you already always know what your top priority is would that make it easier for you to stay on track with your business development? Oh yeah, that sounds fantastic so again I've got the objection and I could meet it right there with part of my process and that's part of what happens in these conversations you also talk about why you're the best person to work with and this doesn't have to be egotistical this isn't about saying I'm the best it's actually about saying why you're different right? Sally hogshead says better isn't better different is better and your difference you're unfair advantages why you're the bus person to work with it's why your solution can help them achieve things that they haven't been able to achieve with other solutions and then finally you also share examples of others you've helped with similar problems or goals. So a lot of times you know if you're on a one to one sales call or you're you know, going back and forth in email with a potential customer a lot of times you might say why I had this client who had this particular problem, and I help them achieve this or you might share a story, you know, a case study that really helps them understand how they're not alone and how your solution has already helped people with the exact same problems reach these same goals that these clients have in common. And so if you're if you're ever at a loss for these examples of how you've helped people again, go back through your your client intake process because you're already sharing these things and it's much easier for these things to come to mind when you're dealing with that one toe one communication. So that's what you share these things? They're all gold. This this is all outlined in the workbook that you get when you r s v p so if you forget any of this or you want to know exactly what to go in and look for, make sure you download that workbook it's all in there and from here on out for the rest of our lessons today, what we're going to talk about is creating a process plan, and if there is one person that I know who could help you create a process plan it's natasha veron, p ova and natasha's, the founder of systems rock she's also a quiet power strategy certified strategist and she's been an instructor on creative live, which I'll let her tell you about but natasha is really the one who kind of introduced me to process planning tto understand how you break something that seems intuitive or something that just seems to come naturally to you down step by step by step her brain works very differently than my reign and I love her for it, eh? So she's going to help us kind of set the stage for what we're going to be doing in the rest of our lessons for today on dh so you can start kind of drawing attention to your process and start formalizing it so let's bring natasha of there she is hey natasha how's it going e I'm so glad you're here, so I'm gonna actually take this opportunity to have a seat. So this this question of of drawing attention to your existing process something we've been talking about in all of our lessons is today and how valuable it is to realize that you've got a process already in place whether you know it or not. So how would you natasha go about drawing attention to an existing process? And you know what are some of the tools that we can use to start doing that you're so I tried to look at it in like three steps first we established the starting point and they ending point and basically you look at where you begin starting with someone and you look at they're believes their mindset medias are misconceptions if it's a kind of process that you are taking them through if it's a project where they are with that project if it's the level of skills where they are with with those skills when when you start working with them and when once you finished working with them again how is the level of their skills now what is the status of the project now what what has changed about their mindset? What has been that transformation so the starting and ending point and then break it break it you break it down further and look at the milestones what are those milestones that you are client needs to reach in order to be able to reach that final points maybe it will not be milestones italy stages again that depends on the nature ofthe off your business and then lastly look at the criteria for for results what will help you to kind of see that's your client is making progress when you take them from milestone to milestone to my smiles what are those kind of performance indicators uh and if I if I were to give an example from my own business, so when somebody comes to work with me they usually feel that they have so much to do on their plate doesn't know where to start. They feel like the stuff they have so much stuff that doesn't matter, that is gets in the way ofthe stuff that does matter, they want to delegate, they want somebody to help them, but because everything is in their head, what they need to do and how they do things, they're simply not able to do that, but once we finished working together, they feel much more grounded in control. They have structures that they can rely on. The process is our documents, it sounds so that if they want to delegate a piece of a process or being tired thing, they can actually ask the assistant to go through the steps. And as long as the steps are clear and they they arrest, assure that the result that they will get will be exactly the same as they usually get. And for me, when I look at those milestones, I look at individual systems, and the guizhou will start with them getting better task management information management that they six thousand will look at clients, worry of the system's marketing arraignment systems, admin staff, and let you look at how they can transition from doing everything themselves, you becoming a team leader, actually making that greater impact, scaling what they feel, um, as for those o ways that I can truck that they are progressing there, some kind of indicators for me if we look at their ability to manage their tasks, then I see that, okay, they wake up in the morning and they know who when they need to work on, they end their day, and they they feel they have the sense of accomplishment that dave down most of the tasks that was their task list. If we look at the skill of creating systems itself, then the best way for me to kind of judge that they master the skills that when they take the approach that I called them and take house, use it for the area that we haven't even touched that's the those are the best examples, but again, when when you look at you at your own protest, look at that starting points ending point, the milestones in between and those kind of indicators that allow you to make sure that the client is making the progress that you want them to make. Perfect. So you mentioned documenting processes? How do you how would you recommend that we go about documenting the process? That is the service that we've been delivering to this point? I'm so happy you asked, because it's so important. Because I know that a lot of plans had come to me they tell me, oh, I can do some something with my eyes closed I don't really need to do it because it's something so easy or I'm not able to do it just because it comes like it's it's so intuitive for me but it is so important to document the process to actually create that step by step just because when we have that step by step we can improve it weekend automate certain parts we can't delegate certain part we can also too weak it so that we can now that we work with one person it could be changed and we can work use the same methodology to work with a group of people or what you did with quite our strategy and as the coaches you can teach that process to somebody else. So if you're thinking about the certification program them you've got to document brought on as for tools first of all extent start with with basics just document that step by step that's by step that happens you can go with foreign tool that you feel comfortable with you can play with sticky notes just take aboard of aboard or flat surface layout posted emcee what is that starting point? What is that ending point? What comes in between? How do you help clients each reach each over the milestones if your visual person maybe mind mapping software with the solution for you, or if your list person opening old book or a word document, or maybe on ever note note, which hammered so you like, and once you have that basic step by step, the next very, very important thing is to move that step by step into a toe where you can make improvements to the process where you can as information about about it, maybe you have worksheets, or maybe you have kind of just explained that that you follow, maybe there are some chip, is that you send by email, and you can just stick worth a ll that in this tool of choice, and I'll come on, and I'll share a few examples off those tools, but it's really not about the two it's about being able to easily access your process is it's about being able to share it with with somebody? Maybe not now, but in the future, it's it's about making sure that you saved the latest version and you can have flaws between different versions off the process. And even though there are so many criteria, is that I just listed, I'm sure that you have such a two already in your toolbox, it can be as simple as your google drive, it can be a project management software like basecamp asana teamwork pm right. Either so many tools like that or it can be ever note I know it's it's something that doesn't really come to mind as police to document our processes but ever notice. Fantastic, too on dh here you mentioned earlier that I have a creative life course and it's ever note for american ever note for pc this is it worse where I take you through this process off turning your evernote into your business management how you are if you don't use ever note you can use the same methodology. Oh, sam's there, step with the tool of your choice again, they're going back to different project management tools, or even go go drive. So what I want to leave you with is that make sure that you select it too, that can grow with your business, it'll that can accommodate you now and for years to come. I really appreciate you saying that I think one thing one of the things that I really value about the way you approach systems, is how flexible it is that it is about documentation, it's, not about a particular tool it's about access, not a particular tool it's about improvement, which which is another thing that you mentioned that I love, like. Way you document your process needs to be something that you can build on iterated from and you know, improve your process from you know you mentioned quiet power strategy and we've been retooling that methodology now every single time I offer the program's something changes something improves and having that system documented has allowed me to do that if I didn't have a document and I couldn't make improvement and that would be highly problematic okay so before we let you go I have one more question I think this is a big one definitely for people here on also in the online audience on dh that is how do you troubleshoot those parts of your process where you do say well I could do this blind folded or I just go with my gut here I just go with my intuition how do you troubleshoot actually figuring out what's going on there? Well this is something that I've struggled with myself just because I strongly believe that best systems reflect our personality they match our business model so you can't really take a system from somebody else because we put it in your business and expect it to perform it might perform well it might not so when I started working with clients one on one I was just going with my intuition like I was asking questions depending what questions they ask me or what answer they gave me so I could not see myself turning it into something that I can teach for groups but what I started doing is that I would go back to my calls with them and listen for remember what triggered me asking the next question and if I were to create a category out of those triggers what that category would be I'm also going back to those criterias for for results that we talked about in the beginning when I was going with my gut and asking a question that's normally I would ask much later in the process or give them an assignment that's I normally don't give like I would go back and see did my asking that question for giving this assignment actually helped them to reach the milestone if it helped them to reach it faster maybe something that needs is to be tweaked to the entire methodology or maybe it was just this client but again looking at comparing your kind of we've got reaction who with doesn't actually help and looking at those great criterias for for results will help to see if it's something that needs your attention and it needs this permanent revision and last but not least add feedback loops that's something that will help you teo it was built on the results that declined has already achieved so for me some off the feedbacks feedback loops that I build them are natural and some kind of I I've pushed them I asked questions the natural ones I mentioned that we ii always begin working with with clients on stuff like task management and calendar management and that's something I know I would create, uh, this free up time for them, and I know that for my clients one of the reasons they don't create systems because they don't have time, it's not knowing how to do it is one thing, but they usually don't have time for it. So I make sure that we first great time. And then, like if I see that they are more comfortable with there as a little if they have those pockets of time to work on systems, I know that we're going the right direction and we simply go back and I asked them, ok, we talked about this system will tell me, how did that work? So if it's climb intake, tell me about the protests of that your last client went so how was it for them? How was it for you? So going back and looking at those kind of result off your clients against your step by step will help you see those trance that will ultimately help you to map out you are your methodology. I love what you said to about thinking about thinking about triggers and categories and like basically I heard if this then that and that that's one of the big things that we need to be looking for us we think about how we deliver our service and what the system is the processes behind that services if your client does this then I do that if they do this then I do this other thing and looking at those if if this then that pieces of your process really helps you break down what seems to be going with your gut but is muchmore about just having that process so integrated into what you d'oh that you just need to pull it out and you need to start recognizing those things so that's that's a great framework for us to use so again remind us again what those creative live classes are that you have so it's ever known for mac and ever note for pc cool and what are we gonna learn if we watch those classes basically it's a framework house you turn you are ever note into a business management have how not to just use it to collect information yeah but also manage your entire business and I give examples of how you can use ever know to manage you our to do list you are out e mails your client intake working with clients I also share a number of times that I've created so those step by step so that I use in my business eh so it's it will help you to see ever those in totally different life for one, and another thing is that you can use the same approach if you choose teo I work with with another two absolutely awesome. Well, natasha, where can we find you online systems from dotcom is my website that's the best place to find me or system struck on facebook? Fantastic natasha, thank you still much for all of this information and really breaking down the process of breaking down our process. Thanks, natasha studio think next time next time. Thanks, natasha. All right. So natasha also writes amazing block post on all sorts of different things. So again, it's systems rock dot com and find her at systems rac systems that rock on twitter and systems rock on facebook. Eso yes, she's fantastic and really does think completely differently about the way I think, which I am so appreciative of. I'm so glad to have natasha on my team. S o I'm one I want to start with the panelists before we start breaking this down for you guys and for you guys out there a cz well, what did you find in your client intake process that would that was valuable in creating your product? You're asked at your program, your experience, what did you notice? About what clients were telling you that allows you to figure out what was going to most valuable when it came teo creating a product bridget I'm going to start with you because you kind of hinted at this earlier yeah yeah like I don't know if I have everything in mind let's tell us whatever you have in mind yeah, well, one of the things that clients will say to me often or that they want more visibility and they come to us when they're at a transition point for their business but what's really interesting is actually when we're having the following conversation about and they're telling us what they like about us and why they hate us and that's what we make them feel like pr is possible are achievable for them like it's something that that they can dio and that we like we mere back to them their value set it's and so I think that that idea and a product of saying you know this is possible it doesn't have to be hard you know I have to pull your hair out to do it is something to bring from our services into our products that's really important to awesome thanks jen, what did you notice about the way uh maybe in your case not clients been the way other photographers other creatives came to you and talk to you about what it is that was unique about you and what you were doing the problems that you were solving well, I think the frustration that they were sharing over and over again was that they don't feel the other fellow they don't fit into the creative entrepreneur box and therefore like wanted permission to be in there or that they weren't like everyone else on dh so they couldn't figure out why you know this no more traditional systems weren't working for them and beyond that thie underlying thing that they all shared was that they I don't feel connected they feel very alone solo entrepreneurs super small business owners mom and pop shops very alone very disconnected and so then of course we know that we not only have to provide programming that will help them develop processes and solutions but also provided with community so they have that ongoing support and they do feel connected to a larger group yeah, awesome sasha what about I know again you weren't doing a ton of one toe one services before you created the tank chasm adventures but you were working with people a little bit and you were definitely getting lots of emails from readers and communicating with readers all the time whether it was from the of your book quirkyalone or your blawg what did you notice about what people were saying to you that helped you really hone in on what was going to be effective product wise why I tell to still do a lot of one on one coaching just f y I sorry um what what came to mind? I noticed this all the time I listened to what people say and then I I obsessively update the sales copy for example on the tank as in page so for example, I talked to this one woman in australia a couple days ago because I talked to each person who comes and she said that you know she loves going places but she doesn't like to go solo solo you know and just this really wanting to have other people to be with the same thing of not wanting to be alone but even her language was interesting because it's like well I like to go somewhere alone but not too alone I want to know that there'll be people that I could do things with a deal supported yeah and probably also the kind of people that don't necessarily go on guided tours of touristy places, right? Yeah like there's some sort of mix of autonomy and exploration is really important but not being totally thrown out there by yourself yeah cool very cool. Well, I actually like to bring rebecca I'm gonna pick on you for this particular thing I'd love to have you come off um I didn't put a hot seat slide on this one so you don't get to see the fun swing sorry about that, but I want to find out first of all, tell us who you are, what you do where we can find you online, but then we're going to talk about what people are sharing during your client and take process absolutely my name is rebecca best ching and on the ceo and founder of potentially a family therapy so www dot potentially a therapy dotcom can find me on twitter at our basking yeah, so you tell us about first of all kind of the direction that you see this product going and that'll help set us up for the rest of the conversation. Absolutely, I think you know, people come to do some deep soul work but wanting to bridge the gap of even earlier intervention or else kind of creating a cultural change in the how we talk about our stories, our relationship with her body, our relationship, a trauma and so there's just a big gap and also sometimes people get so stuck in their identity of their pain vs warren just informing their story and feeling kind of what they're going to do with their life. So needing something that is encouraging it bridges the gap again from I am sick, I am I'm pathologize dh two also handed some language to share with other folks who maybe don't identify with this struggle to this intensity, realizing how widespread you know if I would joke if you've been through middle school, you've had trauma, you know and find me someone who hasn't had a bad body image today and so I've yet to find either of those still yeah ok cool, so I think it's just like we talked about with lily it's important to me to make clear that you're not necessarily looking to product ties therapy no, you're looking at creating a solution to a particular problem and I think this in your client intake process is probably where that that gold is. So tell me some of the problems that you see people sharing with you as your welcoming a new client into your practice absolutely so we get calls and phone calls usually we're known for our specialized treatment with the disorder eating spectrum trauma and shame and perfection struggles so they'll ask for help with your eating disorder with bad body image with their inability to connect with never feeling satisfied in anything they do no matter how perfect it is and so identifying obviously there's a basic piece of you know time and availabilities logistics piece there's the fee component on and also assessing motivation and fit one thing I realized with our group people who are great fits for potential people really ready to do the work and that's the nuts and bolts it's it's grady work yeah versus has wanna hang out and complain and saying that that's ana fit for us either we don't want to collect checks and kill time we want to be a part of helping them live a better story yeah and beyond like I need help with perfectionism or I need help with my body issues are they saying I have a particular goal in mind or is there a particular reason they've sought therapy right now? You know, it's a mixed some people are saying I've tried everything else without reaching out I've tried to do this on my own and I feel like a failure for even having to reach out so it's bridging that gap and normalizing that that's the courageous act it's not a failure that's a victory on dh there's other people who are getting told to come in and they're kind of that I meant now navigating that ambivalence so simple were like everyone else says I need to do this, you know and so navigate and so the folks that come in when that's really their agency obviously I have better outcomes and quicker outcomes usually that's a really important thing to know if you know there's a difference between you've got to kind of sets of clients two segments of clients one group doesn't get such hot results and one to group does get hot results you want to focus on the group that's really getting results and how you can look at creep making that group bigger and creating more solutions for them because that's that's going to be huge and it's gonna make your life a lot easier that's definitely something that can come out of identifying your client intake process. So the last question and I have for you I think it's going going to set you up really well for future steps which is un curious what you're hearing them express or maybe what you're reading under the surface in these initial conversations, which is what is what is the meaning of therapy in their life? In other words, we don't just do therapy for therapy sake, although I'm sure there's somebody that does but you're we're not talking about those people were talking about they're people who are doing therapy with a particular meaning a particular purpose, particularly mission in mind. So what do you think or some of the things they're not think what do you know are some of the things that people are uh using therapy to accomplish absolutely well they want to come to a place that's a holistic approach so that we have a treatment team it's not just their this dietician massage yoga in a space that's beautiful so I think there's the aesthetic piece in the holistic piece um and circling the question sorry they want to accomplish right? Yeah, what do they want to accomplish well, the wide why therapy? What meaning does it have for them? In terms of their larger goals? They're larger goals is I couldn't do it on my own and I need help and I want relief I want to get rid of the dissatisfaction I'm sick of the crazy making in my head I want to live yeah, so okay, so I want to live what do they want instead? Because I hear you keep coming back to the problem sure and there has to be a goal in mind. Oh, I see what you're saying my apologies, I no, no don't don't apologize at all because it's a great it's a great model for everybody else because if you're stuck on the like, the problem is sanely important, I think that some people sometimes even know what they want and that's why I'm having a hard time iterating they know their pain and I'm like I can see the vision and I know for me if I don't if I rush to where I think they could be in there, not ready, I have to pace that, okay? So sometimes it's just navigating in building the trust that I get your pain, I get where you're at there's there is hope there's something more, but the goal really is what I want with my life can I can I have relationships and I'm gonna live in loneliness you know I want to be successful I want to be independent from my family I want my head to get a little quieter I want to redefine my identity, okay, so on those were the things that we get to but sometimes it just like, do they even get them in it's just is this worthy and autism but don't you think their pain is justified? Okay, I think I'm making it a bigger deal. So okay, so you pulled out a lot of things that air like hugely important right back like the relationship salute can I be somebody who's in relationship with other people or one other person? Right? Because I bet you probably deal with a lot of people who think they're not worthy of having a romantic relationship. Yeah, so that is one of very concrete goal that could be the focal point of a particular product of course a workshop whatever it might be that one particular goal living independently from your family I bet that's a really big one I mean, I'm someone who has suffered from depression in the past and always when I'm in the midst of depression it's me, you know, really leaning on my family and whatever way and lots of different ways logistical ways and, you know, mental health always on dh so I think that one's really really huge to stay again where some of the other like super specific outcomes that people are looking for being able to function and show up in life without being leveled you know so being able to go to their work are finished they're finished their schoolwork to stay in a relationship but not weak you know they get out before the shoe drops you know tio tio yeah or dating the same person again and again you know finding that hole the crazy making their life and feeling just very stuck in the patterns sing where they want to go and sometimes even where they think they should be isn't really what they want you know it's kind of like they know the show ds from culture from family and going okay wait who am I and what do I want but sometimes that means just kind of coming down and you know kind of doing some triage two so that you handle some insight yeah so another thing that I want to point out with your example two and this has been a super effective example thank you is that you when you said the goal you rushed all the way to the ultimate goal if I do that yeah which is I wantto be I want to have a different identity essentially I want to be able to live my life that is a giant google and you can't promise that team all right it's a process there's actually processes within processes here right so if you go at it and say you know what I'm what I have to offer you is the ability to live your life what I have to offer you is the ability to see yourself like you never seen yourself in that voice too right yeah it is it's not gonna land right it's going to land with a certain group of people and you don't want them in that are not ideal so you don't want that so being able to break I'm using my voice right now to my advantage thank you so you could being able to break that down into incremental goals is huge and this is what's so often comes out in the client intake process that idea people like you are often blind teo so if you find yourself in rebecca's situation which is I know what the ultimate goal is but I can't sell that this is key looked back through your emails look back through those initial conversations what was one thing people told you they wanted I want to be able to be in a relationship I want to be able to stay in a relationship and not feel like I have to get out before it gets bad or I want to be independent from my family like that something that you could work someone through it's a it's a promise that you can make even if you can't legally guarantee it right but it's that it's that I can help you with best silly and it's it's a it's a matter of building trust to conditional yes because if you again if you sell a product and you use that swore me sales voice that says buy this you know, spend a thousand dollars with me and I'll help you change your life like not going to fly, not trustworthy it does not sound good, but if you say spend a thousand dollars with me at this one day workshop and I'm going to give you a step by step process for understanding why you're getting out of relationships before for you really need teo and how you can nurture relationships so that it feeds you so that you feel really good about it so that you feel like yourself in a relationship that feels good that feels yeah, I can expect that at the end of the day or at least I'll have that process and I can continue working on it nobody believes you can change their life in a day nobody believes you can change their life for a thousand dollars yes, you know changing the way someone thinks about themselves in relationship will change their life but that's not the promise that you want to make and it's not really very marketable either so, yeah, so that's, that's. Really helpful? Thank you, thank you, yeah.