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Talking Personal Projects with Ben Moon

(peaceful music) Yeah, we're sitting here with my pal Ben Moon, and I'm here with him because I love his work and he's done a phenomenal job at taking personal projects that were wholehearted and really from the center of the soul. And then that ultimately leading to some amazing commercial projects. So, you know, I would just like, love to know how that journey began with taking on personal project. Like, was it your goal to ever get commercial work from it? Like what was the beginnings? I, mean, I, as you can probably relate, I mean, you, when you find something that won't let you go, you, you just know that it's something you want to tell more stories about you, you just pursue that and it feels easy. There's no like, oh, this is a, this is a challenging, a lot of times commercial work is very, you know, you're, you're butting against trying to get clients or doing other things, but when you're doing a personal project, it's just, it's what you're passionate about. And so, the D...

enali film was just because he was with me for almost 15 years and, you know, it was a challenging edit. Like it wasn't like the film just came out a viral video, you know, it was a, it was a, it was a long process. It took a year and a half to figure out the tone and who to work with, and, you know, a lot of, a lot of challenges and struggles. And a lot of people told me to just let it go. They're like, you know, your dog's gone. Like, it's fine, you know? And I was just like something there wouldn't, you know, there was something deep down and I knew that there was a relatable story in there. And I think that's the key, it's not personal projects that mean something to you, but also others can see themselves in, I think that's the key. Yeah. And it wasn't like, you know, we didn't get paid for those 20 million views or whatever, because it was on Vimeo and everything. So it was just, it was more just that touched, there were three filmmakers involved and all of us had got work in our own ways because of just, there's something about that film that touched the chord with people. Yeah, so it was like, so palpable because it was like a gift. Yeah. The film was just something that you gave away. And I feel like, you know, I have a lot of friends that are musicians and I worked a lot with them and you know, they always say, once your song is out in the world, it's not yours anymore. And I felt like that with everybody, you know, it's Denali was such a personal film and it, you know, I shared things that I hadn't shared before in it, but there was something, once you give that out to, to everyone else, it's suddenly just it's, it's not yours anymore. And you know, people see themselves in your story and they suddenly think they know you really well. And I'm sure you felt that with Maddie and you know, and so things we done with her, but. So what were like some details that helped you figure out, or give you a sense that it was gonna be a project that might resonate with more people than just yourself? Cause obviously, like you said, it kind of has to come from the heart something true, but then also has to be palpable to like someone else. Is that just an assumption you make or what was the, like the gut interpretation of knowing that it could reach other people? I mean, I've been doing this for almost 20 years, you know, through photo and film and now writing. And I always say, I feel like I'm getting away with something because it's always just finding those little trusting, those little intuitions. Yeah. And a little spark that you just, you know, and oftentimes it's just a feeling you have that something is the way you should go and it's not like the doors just like fly open and you have this grand, you know, chorus telling you to come in. It's a, oftentimes it's like, you have to, you feel it and it won't let you go. It won't, won't let you go. Like, I remember Andrew Bird said once he's like, I know a song is good, if I don't write it down, it just, it just stays in my head. And I like that thought, cause it's like, if it stays in your heart, then you know. Right. Then you know you gotta tell that story. I love that. And so. Yeah. Are there moments in creating that personal project where you were over it, or just wanted to like let it go, or do something else, or was it always a clear vision start to finish? No, I mean, it was, we had one edit already for, for a film festival circuit, and I had to pull that edit and it was, it was, you know, painful to do that, cause it, we just, I just like, it's not ready for this yet. And then, and then I tried to edit it myself for a few months, and I knew I was too close to it. Had another friend try who he was too close to it. And then, you know, it was like, I finally convinced Ben Knight who ultimately narrated it and it edited the piece to do it, but it took him like six months too. And he had a lot of doubts. And so it was like a lot of just, it wasn't like this thing that just opened up, it was just something, I knew something was there, we had to finish it. Right. And so, and it was simple. I mean there were no dramatic shots in there. It was a very simple narrative, you know, it was from the doctor's perspective, which is interesting. Sure. But, there was no, were no, you know, drone shots or any, we had one of the early movies, you know, you know, and, and that's about it. You know, there was, there was a couple, you know, gimbal shots in there, but it wasn't like a grand filmmaking, you know, swoop, there wasn't, it was, it was very touching and personal. Right. And a lot of old photos that I actually wouldn't have picked, you know. cause they were. Sure. cause they were they were kind of just awkward and goofy and, in a lot of ways it was the antithesis to, you know, pure beauty. It was just, you know, anybody, who's had a friend that, you know, they have that bond with and when they have to let, 'em go, it's like, it's sad. But it also, there's a lot of beauty in that. Right. When I went in to write the memoir, I realized that I was like, you know, there's, everybody's like, oh, it's a sad story. I was like, no, there's, there's hope in it. And there's like, there's a reason why dogs are here to teach us something. Right. You know, and. Yeah. So, obviously that personal project has since led to me to more personal projects connected to it. But once that film was released, it found an audience, an organic audience, which there's a component of that, of not forcing it. It was just shared because it was beautiful in the right time, in the right place. And so like the film drops, it's getting traction were, for some of the first, you know, contacts that you had commercially after that project dropped, they're like, "hey, we saw your film, we'd love that piece, we want to hire you for this other project." Like what does that story arc look like? You know, I was, you know, like a lot of us in this industry, I went to outdoor retailer and you know, it was definitely the film had gotten out there and it was, it was interesting cause, I was used to, when I started in, in film photography, it was like, you know, nobody really knew who you looked like. It was just, they knew your name in the, in the binder, you know? And suddenly it was like everybody had seen my face and it was like a unusual, like sudden attention on myself. But I remember being at a private little barbecue for, with YETI, Kris Kristofferson was playing and, the creative team was there. And I remember them just being so excited about the film and you know, really wanted to work together. But I also, for me, it's like, I don't, I could have, could have done a lot of work that was just shallow and just cashed in on that opportunity. But I felt like I wanted to make a piece that meant something to me. And my buddy, Daniel, who pitches for the tigers, Daniel Norris, I suggested we'd do a little film about him and ended up being like, you know, now that's become like a friendship for the last, you know, six years we do a trip every year and, but that we made a film called Offseason about Daniel and his story. And it was different than a lot of YETI pieces. Right. But it, to me, it was really meaningful because it was someone I really cared about and wanted to tell their story, so. Right. So with that, the film Denali, did that open up any still photography opportunities for you? Oh definitely. Yeah, I mean, I felt like it was just, you know, it was a moment where people were interested in what I was doing, but again, it's like, you need, it's not like the doors are just kicked open for you. You still gotta go pursue those opportunities and feel what feels right for you. Because if, if you start doing work, that's so off the, off track from what you're doing. Right. Or what you're good at or just what you're passionate about, it shows. Right. And so it, you could get a little flash in the pan, but that's not gonna be sustainable. Right. You know, so. So did you experience a wave where, you know, you hit the high of Denali recognition and then did you come down off of it? Did you feel like you ever like disappeared from visibility or, you know, like you didn't have the hit single anymore? Was there, was that ever part of the journey? One thing about making something like, well, something personal like Denali, I felt like that had staying power and it, and it still resonates. And you know, you can, you can capitalize on some, something that's right in the moment and it, and it can have a success temporarily, but when something is really meaningful, I feel like it has a lot, a lot, a lot longer life than that and. Yeah. You know, Rivian was the new electric truck company, that came on I mean a lot because he saw Denali and, he was all, I know that the creative director was also from Michigan and kind of, we related in a lot of ways, but, and ironically, both my connection with Daniel, with the tigers and with Rivian were both random Instagram direct message, you know, where it's just like, oh, this is just nothing, but now sudden it's just boom. Sure. You know, so you gotta, you know, the message from Rivian was a, from a personal account and I almost blew it off. And so again, you gotta kind of follow those leads and see where they go. Right. And so. So, what work has, personal work has Denali inspired for you now? Like what other projects have you taken on? Like, do you reference that project in new work that you create now? I think I just look back at that as like, is this relatable? And is this something that, you know, will other people see themselves in? And like the memoir, I wrote Denali for Penguin Books, that took four years and that was something, I, it was an extension of the story, but it also, I knew I needed to go way deeper to, and in order to tell that, and, you know, writing a book is isn't, it's not like the immediate success of a film, or things like that, cause it's a book, books publishing is a slow process. Right. But I also knew that getting that story down in a way that other people could palpably hold that in their hands would be a different feeling than like a photograph on Instagram or on a film, so. And then that's being adapted into a feature and so there are things that are, you know, coming from that as well. Yeah. But it's a slow process, I mean, that took four years to write the book and it was like, I had to put a lot of other projects on hold, but I feel like the project that, one personal project that really has been, had the most, the longest standing thing is a project I just call Faces, it's just a black and white portrait, tight 85 millimeter. And you know, it started because there was this beautiful, reflected light, just like this in my, in my kitchen, in Portland when I was living there and I would just take portraits of musicians and things there. And then I realized I could recreate that open shade feel anywhere. Right. And it was all about the person and not about, you know, not about the, not about the clothes they were wearing or where they, who they even were. It's like, and you got to see who they were, you know, let their guard down and really see that. But, what I want to say about that is that that personal project led to more commercial work up until the Denali film than I ever had in my life. Right. And it was, it was a. So how long were you at that project before you felt like people were seeing it or reaching out to you because of it or to hire you for it? It was like, it was a few years. I mean, it was four or five years before, like I really got in the rhythm and it wasn't, I don't think Instagram was even really a thing yet. And it was just, you know, clients had seen that on my website or whatever, like, cause that's people used to look at websites, ironically. (men laughing) BenMoon.com? It still is, but have I haven't updated it in six years. (men laughing) That might be why buddy. (men laughing) But now, it's, that's the age old thing, the website's done as soon as you update it. But yeah, it's. So it was like a long curve of like having a great idea and really seeing it through? Yeah. Honing your craft in that single idea. And then what was like the editing process like for that project? You obviously had the scale down, which was like really simple backgrounds, 85 millimeter was like your tool in your camera. Yeah. Really shallow focused, I mean, you shoot those portraits. What does that editing process look like for that? So, yeah, it was, it was all about getting the eyes and focus. Cause I feel like the eyes of the window of the soul, you know, and that's, you just want, you wanted, I wanted a person to just let their guard down for a moment and let me see them for who they are. Right. And not put on the smile, you know, a lot of people that if they're celebrities or whatnot, they always, they know how to look, but I wanna see who they really are. Right. And so the editing process was what honestly took the longest time. It was like, initially it was just like a high contrast thing, but then I realized I needed to kind of immerse myself in that person. And you know, it's a, it took years to kind of find the tone that I wanted for that. Right. And it's different with everybody, cause everybody's different skin tones and things, but it's all personal feel, you know, editing is a personal feel and you know, I used to shoot Velvia film. And now, that looks so outdated. Yeah. You know the old oversaturated high contrast and now everything's like portrait and like the more subtle feel, but. Yeah. But that's what magazines and Patagonia wanted back in, you know, the early 2000's. Right. But, so. It's like edit and feel changes over time, but it's all about finding a consistency on a long term project. Right. I that's the key. Yep. And I just made a short with, you know, with Nori on the beach here and it was like a project that was like, okay, let's limit yourself to one lens, one camera. Right. And let's just, and I was like, let's just show it through the eyes of a dog loving to be on the beach. Right. And let's just, you know, it was just a quick two minute blurb of, you know, just everything's walkable and it was just a fun way to, you know, share the joy of, that we all see in our dogs when they hit the sand, so. Right. Yeah so like, what are like with your personal work obviously like intersects your own personal interest. Like I know you love to surf, you're a great surfer. You also have documented a lot. Like what was that intersection of photography and surfing like for you? Well, when I first started shooting, I was, I was a climber and that was what I obsessed with. But I grew up in Michigan and being, you know, near a lake shore and a body of water and watching the sunset to the west, you know, something that was just in my blood. And so when I moved out west, you know, I got into surfing a little bit at the same time, got into climbing and, but I would leave Oregon and you know, it would get too cold to really climb. And so I would just leave for a couple months and go to Hawaii or Baja, or Mexico I started shooting surfing and being underwater was one of those experiences. When you, when you see something from a different perspective and not many people were shooting underwater photos or just somebody duck diving a wave, you get this whole new world. And, and I just, you know, there were a lot of surf photographers out there shooting, you know, the biggest waves and the most beautiful waves, but I just love being in the ocean shooting. And one of my favorite photos still is a day that the surf, the waves were bad, but I just asked my friend, who's a surfer in Patagonia. And I was in Australia, I was like, can you just duck a couple waves? And it's like this, it looks like clouds above her, you know, and she's under the water and it's just this, it looks otherworldly. Yeah. And that thing won so many awards and, you know, and it's, it was just a, she's like, why are we doing this? The waves are terrible, I was like, just, just trust me, Let's just try this. Yeah. Cause it's a whole new way of looking at something. Yeah, I love that. Like when the weather's not perfect, it's not your expectations for the day. Maybe just like lean into it. Yeah. And see what you can't create with the, what's there for you. And there's obviously unexpected, you didn't know that day, you're gonna make this award winning photograph. No, not at all. And I mean, that's the thing about the ocean it's like, you know, with climbing and things, things are, you know, you have a static medium, but the ocean's always changing. There's the tide, the wind, the you know, the weather, the, you know, the clarity of the water changes every day. You don't know what you're gonna get. And so I love that dynamic feel to that, but, and also that's how I got started with Patagonia too, is shooting the in between moments. You know, it was, it was like, it was this, it was just us sitting around a fire, you know, talking in the evening. Right. And I shot a lot of those peak moments where, you know, people shooting, you know, or people on their, on their projects climbing and, you know, doing incredible stuff. And you know that's fun being hanging from a rope and watching someone, you know, try their, try their best and achieve those things. But when you're, the moments you remember most are these, the conversations, the things when you're just hanging out at camp and, you know, you say the weather's terrible, or everybody needs a rest day. Like, you know, that's when you like, think of something really hilarious to shoot, or some project that you'd never think of otherwise. Right. It's almost like you can't let the amazing sunset light carry the photograph. Then it's like concept becomes way more important. Yeah. And your idea to execute in the photograph, like the duck diving, like that's something that, you know, you kind of like request because you could see it. Yeah, exactly. Cause the light, the light wasn't there that day. Yeah, it was, it was high noon too. It was like, you know, normally when nobody would want to shoot. Right, and that's probably a great time to shoot because. Underwater. The lights coming through underwater. Yeah, exactly. It's kinda like those images where you see of like lake Tahoe, California. Yup. All the crystal clear water is like high noon. Yup. Really bright sunlight. Yeah. Yeah. And there's another photograph, I was in Joshua Tree just with one of my old friends, Sonnie Trotter, who's a pro climber. He, we'd known each other for 15 years at that point. And you know, we had all these photos in mind, you know, and Joshua, tree's a beautiful, beautiful place, but it snowed 18 inches and none of us had anything but flip-flops and, you know, a pair of pro shoes. (man laughing) And so, we had two vans parked next to each other we're just like passing, you know, food back and forth. Yeah. And like going to one van, the other van. Right. Then finally, we're just like, we're going crazy, we gotta go do something. So we went and tried to find a boulder that was like overhang enough to climb. And then Sonnie's just like, let's just like make some snowmen for spotters, just as a joke, you know? Yeah. And next thing, you know, the spot the snowmen had a Patagonia jackets on him. Yeah. They were spotting his wife, Lydia. Yeah. And it's like, well, that photo got published like all over the place, you know. Right. And like it was, and so it's just one of those things that just came from letting go of like what you had in mind and just finally like going to what works, so. To be honest, I thought you were gonna tell a story that you guys tossed a baby in between your two hands. (men laughing) That was, you see. Where we cut to that Patagonia photo. (man laughing) The old, the old, now the old that was. (man laughing) I think actually Jeff ended up, the guy who was throwing the baby ended up working for PrAna forever, and like, I knew him pretty well, but it was like him catching the baby. I'm just like. (men laughing) It's one of those horrifying photos, but it's like, it's iconic, you know? Yeah. It's like, so. Yeah and I think that's a really beautiful reminder is like, you know, when there's this component of like, kind of getting uncomfortable, like leaning into if, it's like the weather or the light's not that great, or it's raining sideways or snowing 18 inches. Yeah. Like not obviously you can't do it every single time. You have to honor how you're feeling, but there is something kind of to be discovered to like, okay, let me take a deep breath and let me just start shooting. Yeah, and honestly, you know, like being here at the beach, I mean, you've been down here, it's like, you know, the mirrored finish of the low tide line looks okay when it's a, you know, blue bird day, but when. Right. A storm just blew out and you, you're not sure you're getting any sunshine and that sun comes out. Right. And it's like coming through the, you know, the clouds and the fog and everything. And then you have the mirrored reflection of clouds moving quickly on the surface of the water. Right. They're just that little skim surface that, you know, your, your dogs, it's like, it's a paradise for a photographer. Sure. You know, it's like, everything looks good, but you, unless you go there, you know, when it's raining and just, just to see. Yeah. You know, and the storm clears for 15 minutes, you get those beautiful photographs. Right. You know, and. Or that, or, my favorite light was the storm light, you know, with the dark clouds and then the beam of sunlight coming through, and then. Right. But blue bird days are kind of boring sometimes. (men laughing) So. Yeah, fair enough. So. With your surf work, so that's obviously became an intersection of personal work and commercial work, do you remember like the first moments when you were getting hired to create because of the surf work? I mean, a lot of that came through through Patagonia and honestly it was, the surf industry was pretty male dominated at that point. And, and I was in, I was in, on Kauai and I started shooting these photographs of like female athletes, you know, doing their thing and shooting surfing and, you know, surf lifestyle. And the photo at Patagonia, this is probably the early 2000's. She's like, I don't get these photos. You know, most of their photographers will not shoot women as athletes. They shoot them as, you know, just on the beach. Sure. And, she, I was like, why wouldn't anybody wanna shoot this? And so that became a whole niche where I started shooting women's lifestyle and stuff on the beach, cause nobody was shooting that at the time. Right. And so it was this weird intersection of like that steered me into a lot of other work for editorial stuff. And you know, a lot of those photographs, I mean they used so many of those for the catalogs back then and. Right. And so it wasn't necessarily on the way of surfing, it was all the beach lifestyle. Right. And like all the things that, you know, we love to do in between surfing. Yeah. You only can surf for a couple hours a day, and so. So it was kind of maybe that, see if this rings true, like that intersection of like a topic you cared about, but also you identified a space that wasn't being recognized or served very well. Yeah. Almost like if you opened a small business, you know, you're not gonna open another sandwich shop right next to another sandwich shop. Yeah. That kind of idea, like you saw a need. Yeah. And you just like went out there. Yeah, and I mean, it was a, it was a funny kind of story cause I remember going to Kauai, the photo editor was supposed, Jane was supposed to send me a box of samples and her intern forgot to send it and she was on vacation. And so I just met a bunch of, a couple families and it was a small island and, and I just, you know, they all had, all those families had like three daughters. And so they were just like, hey, let's go. Like they knew all these secret spots. And so I just like. Right. Ordered clothes that would fit them. And we started just like going and making photographs. It wasn't even that I saw the niche was there, I just was like, I'm here, This place is so inspiring to me. And, these, you know, everyone here knows where they're going. And so it was like, I just was like, why wouldn't I shoot this? Right. And I was kind of shocked that there wasn't, that wasn't had, hadn't already been used. So it's kind of a, when you go to a place and it just speaks to you and you, and you create something, it's kind of how, how it was and so. Yeah. But I do agree, you can find those niches and with Patagonia, I always, they always called me their utility shooter because I would shoot all these different things that I try to only stick the disciplines I was good at, or that I knew what I was doing because it felt more true to me. Like I always felt like when someone was, you know, trying to shoot skateboarding and they're not a skater, you might get a few good images, but you don't really understand it. And it's hard to herd it to like, you know, if you're too diverse it kind of dilutes what you do. Right, yeah. But I also like to, you know, just find those niches in between what wasn't already being done a ton, you know, cause a lot of guys will focus on just the pinnacle moments, the Red Bull style thing. Sure, yeah. You know? And as we, as you know, I mean it's like the lifestyle is more relatable and I think that's what it comes down to. What can you like see yourself in a photograph? It's not, I mean, everybody can achieve, you know, aspire to achieve like hanging from a, you know, cliff face like way off the deck, but it's, if you it's those moments in camp where everybody's like, man, I wanna be there, I just want to, like, you know, before van life was, you know, a thing, it was just, you know, it was kind of the dirtbag scene, you know? Right. So those lifestyle moments I didn't even know it was called lifestyle at the time. It was just, it was just, you know, shooting the in between moments, you know? And I think that's the, you know, and making up something you're like, oh, this could be funny. And Patagonia and other companies have always appreciated the candid, the humor, the unexpected, you know? Yeah. And so, but you have to, a lot of people are like, oh, well, you know, I just, here's a photograph that's really great. It's like for, to create something, you know, if it's on spec and you're just making it up. And so you have to put the elements together, you know, you gotta find the location, you gotta find the subject. Right. You know, and, you know, find a topic or you have to, you have to style the set and you do that with all your work, you know, with, with Maddie, it's like, you have Maddie, you have the subject, but you have to make it feel good. Yeah. For that photograph and find the location that will speak to the audience in some way, and so. Right. So I think that's like a big thing with my personal work. It's about how do I put myself in inspiring situations in places and obviously coming to visit you. Yeah. Being on the beach somewhere new and fresh kind of reinvigorates me to pick up the camera today. Yeah, totally. Just like if I was to visit you in Whitefish, you know, it's like, there's, that's a whole new, you know, the light's different, the. Right. You know, you have the mountains and the lake and your dock and it's like, all those things like, oh, I wanted you to start, you start automatically clicking into go mode, you know? Right, yeah and that's like, actually a part that I haven't spoken about enough yet in this workshop is about how travel is that initiator for like new inspiration, I know it is for you. Yeah. You know, just to bring in new light, new people, new experiences. Yeah. So we're like, do you have, like, you know, do you have like that moment where you felt in a rough and then travel kind of opened you up creatively? Yeah, I mean I've lived in Oregon for over 20 years now and you know, we get, you know, summers are just incredible and fall that's one of my favorite times of year. And then, you know, storms start hitting and it starts getting a little more grey and you're like, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine. I'm just gonna edit, I'm gonna, you know, put up my new website. (men laughing) I'm in a. (men laughing) And then you finally, like, you realize, like, I need to get outta here for a minute. Yeah. And you go somewhere, you know, for me, it's like, you know, say the islands or, you know, to Baja or somewhere you can just let go. Yeah. You just put on board shorts and just kick back. And you just, like, you're not fighting the elements suddenly, you're just like able to relax. Right. And then suddenly everything is interesting again. Yeah. You know. And that's why I'm here in Oregon shooting this workshop. Cause I could have done it where I lived in Montana and I was just like, oh, like we just need to get out. Yeah. Like I need that new scenery. I need to come hang with my buddy, I need the coast. And also it's like, I, oh, I'll take a road trip and just know I have a few friends to see along the way. And just getting that like energy from a few other creatives. And a lot of my, our, our friends are creatives. And like you just talk to the few of them and suddenly you just have all these ideas and. Yeah. And being on the open road, having that time just by yourself to drive and think is. But I talked about this a little bit earlier in the workshop and actually reference two of your photographs well, two of, two photographs that you posted to your Instagram feed that other photographers took of you and Nori and actually I saw them back to back. You post, I can't remember how far apart they were date wise, but they were in sequence and I saw those two images as like that inspired me to then take a self portrait with Maddie. Yeah. And myself in it. I was like, and that just like clicked in my brain. I was like, oh, I haven't done that a while, let me try something new. And I kind of referenced those two photographs and then created, you know, my own piece from it. Yeah. Do you have, is that part of your workflow ever, like looking at other people's work, hearing their song and then it clicks something for you? Yeah, I mean, you, you see a photograph, you watch a film or you just, you know, you go travel someone and someone just references an idea. You're like, oh wait, you know, and I think working with other photographers or like, you know, bouncing ideas off each other and just being like, hey, let's, do you mind like trying this, let's just see if this works, you know, you never know. Right. You know, and you know, it's like, and some of that has to do with like being open to new ideas, some of it has to be with like finding a place where you can be vulnerable, you know? And my most engaged photo on Instagram, it was a vulnerable photograph. And I, it was just on a editorial shoot and I was just like, oh, let's just try this, you know? And she, she asked me if I would be willing to, you know, share something personal and I was like, okay, let's try it. Yeah. And it's like, and it worked, so. Yeah. It's an interesting thing where you never know when, where something's gonna lead in. so you just, yeah. Follow those little sparks, I guess. Yeah, and that, that seems, so when I look at your work, that seems so important. Like I take, like you show up and you're like really present in your work when you're photographing other people. And like, does that ring true to you? That idea like. Yeah. What, like that relationship between your subject? Like what, is, what's your wisdom on that idea? Yeah, I mean I tend to work with friends and people that I have established some sort of relationship with. I don't often, I mean, for commercial suites, obvious, sometimes you have models, but I tend to enjoy working with people that I have some sort of friendship or relationship with. And I think it, I think for myself, I, when I feel that connection, I, the work just looks better, you know, and. Right. Yeah, someone who's paid to pose can look good for a photograph, but I feel like the depth of a photograph or a film when it's about when, when there's a story there there's a lot more to it, so. Right, so if you could come up with like a couple key points, you know, like one to four key ideas of someone like looking to step in to a personal project, like, what's your advice, you know, to inspire or to direct, or to help shape someone beginning in a personal project? I mean, a personal project could be one singular project, or it could be a long term thing, but either way, it needs to be something that first speaks to you, that you really wanna do, that you care about, that there's some sort of meaning behind it to you. And then if it's relatable, which if it's meaningful to you, typically others can see themselves in it too, you know? And, it might not be obvious immediately, but like, if you feel that spark and that inspiration to start shooting something, just follow that and you don't know where it's gonna lead. And so, that's the long term thing is that's where it comes in. It like you don't, it might not play out immediately. It might be, you know, six months or 10 years, and so. Right. And, you know, the case of Denali, it was, you know, it was a relationship for 14 years and that ultimately that, that connection is what you know, was conveyed in the film, but it wasn't, you know, it wasn't like we just set out to make a viral video, you know, so I would say, you know, find the spark, make it relatable, and then also make it repeatable too. You know, something that you can, you find a theme, a consistent theme that you can, you know, you could, you know, do in different locations or it just in your own backyard. I mean, I think the most fun thing, you know, I love taking a walk across the street and seeing the patterns and the dune in the sand, you know, it's like every day it's different, you know? And it's like, it's not that I take a photograph every day, but I notice it every day. Yeah. You know, and it's something that I'm like, whoa, that the way the light hits and you see it throughout the year. And so find an area, you know, in your everyday walk or whatever that you, you know, that is something that you see and you can watch the light change and you can watch the, the changes in, in yourself too. It's like, you, come back to a place a year later and you see how you've changed and it's, it can like kind of teach you something. Right. And so, and so I think, I think you grow with a personal project and then as you grow, others will, will notice that too. Right. So it, it might not be, you know, it might not be immediately successful commercially. And when I first posted one of the, those faces portraits on Instagram, I didn't think anybody even, I thought it'd be an outlier and now people are, they wanna see those. And so it's, it's, it's interesting. It's like, so yeah. Yeah. Just start pulling on that string and the next thing, you know, you might find something. That process of creating. Yeah. Hey, thanks brother. Yeah, thanks. Cheers. Cheers, yeah. Ben Moon y'all, no big deal. Thanks. (men laughing)