Lessons

Lesson Info

Separate Issues and Interests

Now a little bit about issues and interests we talked about this yesterday um I need to talk about it a little bit more today and by the way uh today we're also going to have the second chapter of the alfa group better world competition and it will be uh the planning meeting of the better world group planning to meet with alfa yesterday we saw the alfa group planning meeting and so are our little story line continues and what we will see is is the better world group trying to understand what are the issues and what are the interest interests and how can we be successful going forward in this situation so issues and interests are very timely here so issues are identifiable and concrete things money time deliver bols fax concrete measurable fax interests are the abstract needs feelings personal goals the future of the relationship fairness underlying motivations who knows what's going on you know perhaps the client is looking for a promotion you know there could be all kinds of underlyin...

g personal motivations that we would call interests and in my experience I have found that these underlying interests are a much harder to determine and be far more important than the issues far more important than the issues so we're always looking to try and discover what are those interests because the issues air pretty much identified through the process you know you know what the assignment is as you probably know what the budget is, you know what the schedule is? You know what the delivery bowls need to be these air all facts that are easy to find out. The client's shares that with you or together with the client you work out with. Those issues are. But the interests are much more difficult to determine what they are, so but they will give us a leg up if we know what they are. Interests are far more important than issues far more important than issues knowing why and how the client's view of these issues was formed. Bring your knowledge, teo, too. What is the right thing to do to help the client achieve their goals on a cz we saw in the white board video yesterday, we saw the creative team uncovering uh, what were those interests of the client and really making a strong connection as a result and women winning the assignment? So cindy uncovered what was really needed and the result was a big win. So when planning first, understand the issues, schedule budget and deliver bols and second uncover what the what the interests, the underlying interests are so use neutral language when you are questioning and I'm going to give you a whole list of questions here, and this will be actually in the in the packet of information and these air questions questions that I've just gathered over the years and my my use of these questions is always two and give me an idea as to what questions I would ask, so I may ask some of these questions exactly as they're written, but more likely they will prompt me to think of what questions I might actually use. So the first one is about time. Why this project at this time, any fixed dates that we that we need to meet and the recent time is so important is that the client inevitably has a schedule there's always, you know, an impending presentation. Ah eh, a new product launch date, government regulations that require material to be in the hands of shareholders, whatever it is, there's always, and that that date can be an advantage to you because the client needs to get something done at a certain time, and the sooner the close of the deadline looms, the more likely that they'll want to get started with you. So what are the company goals? And by the way, what are your personal goals? What effect will it have on the company, the division yourself, the world? How do you envision the project moving forward? There's a very open ended questions? What effect will it have on the marketplace, on competitors on you? Who will report to and why you know inevitably there's more than one person involved who will we need to get approvals from and why inevitably there will be a group of people behind the scenes that need to approve who will be on on your project team what are the competitors doing that will impact our efforts? No I'm talking about the client's competitors are there things that their competitors aire doing that will impact this effort? Is there a model for success or for failure? Have you done something like this before and it was wildly successful and how did that go? What did you learn or was did you experience something or observe something was a failure that on a similar project that you want to avoid have you undertaken anything like this in the past? Maybe they've never done this before maybe it's completely new what was your experience? How is this effort viewed within the organization are their groups who will be advanced by the prada? Are there groups who feel threatened in fact that's the only difficult question on the list very neutral language all intended to give you tools for uncovering what's really going on here with the clan so yesterday we saw alfa group planning for their meeting with better world and today we're going to see just a little hey rehash first uh uh alfa group has purchased charge it for an astonishing fifty billion dollars charge it will dramatically extend the use of anything powered by a battery better world design is one of two finalists for the product and brand design assignment there's a large assignment for a large corporation you will see alfa team and better world team prepare independently and then meet to negotiate the deal. Today we're going to see the better world team and just to remind you yesterday we saw ted charles and tabatha do they're planning session for alfa group today we're going to see alison bin and cindy from better world do they're planning session find a partner way have the three of us I want you to take note of the questions and then be prepared to address us with your thoughts and answers so here's the thing and it's just to let everybody know this video is a little bit longer usually we only play fairly short videos this one's about fourteen minutes long, so make sure you take notes as you're going and write down the questions are the answers to the questions that ted just asked s o we can talk about them when when the video's done plane right uh so here are the questions how do their interests differ? How do their interests differ? So we have been from strategy at better world allison, whose ceo and cindy, who leads up the researched heads up the research team uh number question number two how does being from ideas in effect cindy's behavior so cindy worked previously at the competitors ideas inc and this is of course the better world team and so question number three is why is a better world a finalist why did they get to be a finalist? There's two finalists it's idea zinc and better world why did better world get to be a finalist and what is better world most concerned about and finally what was most notable in there planning meeting this is an exciting opportunity, huh yeah, I can't uh I still can't believe that it's happening good morning, ladies. Good morning. Hired cheers were the finish line? Yes, we are. Thank you. Cheers. Congratulations. Yeah, thanks to see if we confession now. Okay, so I just want to chat about how we feel they're going approach us today. Uh, I know my number one concern is knowing charles knowing ted, uh, they're gonna want us to justify how much we're charging more than the competition. Well, ted, not so much. I can see charles, I've worked with them before and charles is more of the money person, so he will need to answer some two, seven, six ted underhand we've worked with him before we've, uh we've been successful in launching some products with him right. But with the products they were, I think ted gets it. What we have to do is explain to charles in a way that's not, um, like insulting he's, not as in touch with a sort of process and the whole development of branding et cetera because he's the money guy. And so if we khun educate him without being patronizing, I think that that would be really good. I dont takes just right. You know, I agree. I ted is, frankly, our ace in the pocket. Uh, but I don't think we should be playing to him right away. Okay. I think we should get to know everybody basically try to get their concerns out of each and every one of them. Uh, but ted is differently. The one is our most powerful tool of this table. Well, that's. Why? I think we should bring up the products at least the success and the other products that we've launched with them. Can we do that? Yeah, well, the ellie led was the one we launched with ten. Correct. That is correct. And we, uh, me there, there fifty, dollar light bulbs. I mean, we did a really good job with that. They do last fifty years, but I think we got consumer acceptance um we guarantee delivery there was there was a lot that we did with that project and they made money and they're making money on it so we definitely have to bring that one up well frankly they know our process they've been in the trenches with us right? They know not they only ted again fair enough uh but ted knows we're the best uh and that's our uh that's our number one point I think I mean frankly our industry reputation were the best of the best if we go into this negotiation just truly believing that I think that will read how do you guys feel like uh he's like a friendly as he was before I started feeling I know something like b is my imagination seems like something's different now or do you think that's just part of it's perfect it's part of the strategy they're not going to give up they're ok they're comfort with us definitely especially if he's working to reduce our numbers it's part of the game right he has to play his own game within his political system not going back to charles if we're going to work with him shouldn't we bringing be bringing up numbers there's some staggering numbers right he's gonna want numbers definitely and we have to convince him that the reason why we are we're above one million dollars on this bid is not because we want to line our pockets correct yeah, he might not I mean that's that's how typically uh firm like ours works and we're different and if he doesn't know that then we really have only this chance to explain that do we have numbers? Well the numbers as faras profit margins go I think they speak for themselves even though we are more expensive than a competition it's our profit margins are significantly lower than theirs which means maybe the proof's in the pudding right there right that means our money is going into making sure what we are doing is the best if he understands very clearly that this about the money is what's needed to be in service of the end result which is a very, very successful charge it launch he understands that it's directly connected that way then I think he can communicate that to the people that you know he needs to convince in the end we don't get to meet with them he does so if we show him that in service off the most successful result we need this amount without that amount it's a lesser lesser product in the end well how do you feel we can effectively create that bridge for him? Ah I think that if we explained that you know we put more money into research and so we take the right steps that you know, we basically have informed steps that we don't waste time going down dead ends that right? You know time is money we put more people on it and we have results more quickly and we could guarantee it too right I mean we have a good track record yeah yeah we do we do with guarantee that makes me nervous but oh, I don't ben you lead all I think the reason I bring that up is as you know I've worked with competiting bid ideas and I've seen a lot while I was there and it's very different here than when it was there they were very choosy here about what products we want to work with at ideas and I won't bring this up because I realized it's not appropriate in some sort of meeting but we did have a lot of delivery dates that slipped for example I mean it it happened more than often and I have not seen that here yet um they're not choosy about their products we are there there's got to be something said for that for the fact that we have excellent references are commitment a commitment to making these products launched successfully making a better world well intense fully aware that our process is more expensive because we eliminate risk through added expenses in time but we've been able to minimize the time uh that it takes to bring these products to market uh I guess my question is what do we understand about tabatha she's the new player, huh I don't know anything about her to show one out of this well she's new she's only been with them for about a year um I have worked with other co workers that I've worked with her through ideas um definitely a go getter she'll want I think she'll want best of both worlds I think she'll want to reduce our car there costs are fees and she will want something that's going to secure her right right her job and her reputation isabelle so she's only been there for about a year now, right? Right so she might be looking for the one product that just completely establishes her yeah let's make sure that we don't tune her out during the meeting is not all about childs if she she'll wanna work with us if she feels like she's eager for acceptance and to be seen as legitimate so let's like shine on our little did and let her know that we take her seriously and okay, you know what that could help help things so here's the bigger question thie often in the room a z has both know our original bid was three point five and I have argued to drive that down to three just so that we're closer to our competition so at the table where do we go? Because you know they're gonna want to drive we can't go down at all I agree it would really cut and compromise a project and it just wouldn't it wouldn't help them it wouldn't help us. It would be a mistake. So somehow we have to be cooperative but clear that but that's it I wish that we had wiggle room I wanted there to be more. I completely agree with that. How do we how do we yeah, how do we look? How do you know? How do we keep from looking uncooperative? Can we use our past projects with them? Show them maybe costs and revenues. The revenue skyrocketed with other products. We may have them look amazing in the industry there an old company, right? They they are this big company that perhaps has this reputation that's, perhaps not so consumer friendly. And we've helped. Then I cross that line. So oh, definitely bring through these different projects that we've worked with him in the past. Um, show them the revenues, the costs and revenues of what we've done in the past with them. So what are the other two? As we agreed on the led project, one of the other two stories of ice that will bring forward falling solar. Okay, don't for sure led for sure. And what what do you think it was? Definitely u n clean water, okay that's good those three? Well, those are some of our personal favorite projects right on I don't think they know about those other two ted might, but so I want to take back to this negotiation mount was this take a step backward uh, charging way no charge it can change the world that's what we're about so how how badly do we want this? I mean, we put months into this already. I mean, is this is a product that could define us globally. So a question I haven't what if we reversed our strategy a little bit and we threw all of our resources that charge it but we can't do that for three million I really hate I don't want to over promise I just can't do that again that's like putting all our eggs in one basket. It's pretty risky, right? So what if do we feel that we're capable of doing that? If we up the price you want to ask oh, you want to ask them more? I know it's counterintuitive but the stakes are high here for us it might be an interesting how much more egg to throw them is not the right term don't let's talk about karen thank you uh okay, so that's good let's talk about our resource is everything right now we're at three three million six months correct yeah so if we stop all other projects how much how much do we how much is that gonna cost us right like at least one million dollars maybe two between are you giving up the um the working concurrently for other clients and the extra manpower put together that's a lot tru but I don't feel like we're threatening any of our timelines on any of the other projects. I mean, we're still in research and development on a lot of these we have fluid timelines I think part of what the risk here for alfa is that they've purchased charge it for fifty billion dollars they're getting criticism and they need to get this to market a sap right let's an extra night I'm wondering what is more important to them the money or getting it to market quickly. You know one thing losing millions per month as far as I'm concerned and you just reminded me fifty billion this is nothing compared tto this is on the book they have the money, they have the money, we forget that cause we're smaller right? But they have it. All we have to do is justify it they have the money so I think that's great but just keep going with that and demonstrate exactly what the perks are of, you know, getting faster to market of what we decide the other two are their investors will be happy if they get to market were quickly exactly if we committed all our resources health, how soon could we do this? How, coop, how quickly could we get them to market to manufacturers? Can we do it in half the time? I'd say half the time I can do the research and half the time, and if we could do that in half the time you have to be figuring that we would be saving them millions of dollars per month that is so true, which would justify a higher bid if we can guarantee. So I don't think we should come out the gates, but that I think we should hold that in reserve to see how the negotiations go. Uh, and then we just know that we have this in our tool belt if necessary, okay? Are we acting like this is some revolutionary idea? Are we totally we've done this before, we're totally comfortable with it. I like the ladder I want to betray the ladder, whether we're comfortable with it or not. Okay, uh, but we know we know charles is all about the money. I think this is the only way to circumvent that concern like, yes, it's money, but we're going to charge you a little bit more and save you millions in the long run, so I like that we'll feel it out see how it goes okay, so lot be logical with charles shine on tabatha right uh bring out the best experiences of that way just let let him remember that you know, we were easy to work with and good people I think that counts for a guy like him again we're good we're great in this we've got excellent reputations we've come a long way we should respect ourselves and yeah right agreed okay let's not lead with need hurray! Cheers cheer this all right? All right. Great work everyone well ben allison and cindy how did their interests differ and he thought max um you know, one thing I noticed is ben you know what? Ben was coming into it it's like hey, we have we have amazing reputation well, cindy in alison's were like we need to justify this about the money portion of it through you are you know, like how can we brings like how can we just fight through her past projects but is like is like, hey, we have a relationship with these people I think we should focus more on that than that, like hardcore justifying of the money portion of it and not worry about like that karen tv is we have a proven track record already I think it's far internal revenue I think he was bend in particular is writing on the idea that they should know and like I feel like that's almost like a negative thing like you should explain that what if they don't know it was almost like I didn't know he was he was like writing on their profit margins yes like they should know exactly what they are bringing in um where on the a lot of side they might not and it's like you might need to explain that a little bit further I think he was like riding on that a little bit okay yeah good point tamara um they see yeah, they seemed like more concerned about the relationship in their image almost like faking it till you make it too late oh yeah we can ask for more money we do this all the time like it's no big deal but you know they still want to justify it and they seem to also be wanting to kind of a hear the conversation to like their emotions and themis people so like making tiffany or this I have seen in the alpha group um to feel more accepted because she's new and they wanted like tabatha tabatha they want to work off of that yeah yeah uh and uh how does being from ideas and affect cindy's behavior did you notice? Yeah um you know, she had a really strong insight into ideas because obviously she worked with him prior but I think her her comments um based around their shortcomings were in my opinion I don't I don't know if this is true enough, but I felt like it was a little negative like that there was no need to bring it up like they should stand on their own and be separated from that right where I think she felt the need like they should almost like throw them under the bus a little bit yeah, it was a little surprising I was like, wait no well they were insiders that they're all friends of course of course backs kind of goat going off that as well it's like uh the one thing that I noticed about something in particular it's like hey like I want to make sure that we can guarantee our delivery date because, you know, working for my past company we kind of slipped a few times and stumbled and I don't want to be a part of that I really want to have like, rocks on like we're going to hit this date no matter what it makes sure that the client has immunity because I don't want to be part of that reputation she was separating herself from them a little bit anything you just said the same thing cindy just from past experience really like definitely wants to kind of pull herself away from that s o she is just like focusing really hard on how could we know for sure the bigger picture of like these are the problems and issues that he definitely will be upset by so there's no room for you know if we say we're going to do this we have to do it yeah yeah good point so why do you think better world is a finalist on this thing given that there are a million dollars over the other guys why are there finalist um one thing that I noticed about this a cz like they weren't focused on just one problem I think they approached every single issue you know also having a proven track record is amazing but you know it seemed like there a cohesive group that works really well together like hey like these are the issues that way need to address here like hitting every point let's not get stuck on one but let's come around let's make sure that we have a plan and then go over the plan again like let's let's be all on together same page and let's go after it maria thought pretty much defense so why were they have finalised I'd like to dig a little more on there why would they have finalised why do you think better world is even a finalist given that they're half again as much as the competition says better world knows themselves and the value they deliver and they know how to service their customers. Okay. Okay. All right. Okay what's the team most concerned about living past mistakes uh I think cindy's like projecting a little bit from her past experience working with them I really wants to make sure that their image is clean and you obviously have rained improving but I think overall a explanation their research behind is probably what they're most concerned about they know that charles is probably their biggest, um threat in this and so using the type of terminology to explain to him exactly why they're priced this hi um I think it's probably what it what I got from it was their biggest concerned yeah let's bring that to the table explaining yes oh actually explaining their extra million yes yeah and potentially more potentially more actually yeah yeah yeah and what do you think was most no really one more from cassara who says that they think they're finalist because of their past success with firm they think they're our finalist because of their past success. So what was most notable about this conversation? Do you think it was most notable to you about this conversation a particular part? Uh we're been actually stated the real issue um and then brought up basically a plan b of what ultimately could win that if if they really didn't take the bait if alfa group don't take the bait what would get it for them, right? Yeah, yeah and it's a strange plan isn't it? Yeah it's a strange place but it definitely separates separates them from the rest it separates them from the rest so he seems to have some decent insights here doesn't some instincts decent instincts absolutely yeah and anything else uh actually I like with and uh you know, the most notable part for me was the n word you know he was like hey, you know, the one thing that he noticed is like you know what if we can cut that time in half and like I really find that you know find the main issue that this company's having and just knock it out of the park for them and make it no longer an issue like let's help them you know I may be doing something a bit different and radical you know? So yesterday you saw you saw the better you saw the alfa group team meat and so today see better world team needs what do you think these guys up to meeting with us that team from alfa group if you think they're up for it yeah hey uh yeah they're a little nervous about charles and um tabatha second tabitha they're worried about tabitha they're worried about top of those she's I think because she is the wild card she's the new one she's a wild so that I think they're making a strong point to acknowledge her what is war is smart very smart, yeah, yeah, they have a really great plan of attack for especially for, like tabatha and charles it's, like, hey, this is what we need to do for each one of them and like, they focus on, you know, a successful round to get there it's like, so that that brings up another thought, uh, from not my perspective is tabatha clearly has underlying interests here, doesn't she she's a year on the job in this gigantic corporation she's, the head of design she's very young she's very pretty. Those are advantages and disadvantages that she has to deal with here. And we saw tabatha sort of gone this way, and that didn't win yesterday. She wasn't kind of committing how she was. And when we discussed this yet yesterday, you all very, very insightfully sort of noted that each one of those people, charles tabatha and ted, had very different perspectives on how this should go and didn't really seem to reconcile them with each other, did they all right, anything from ted there's definitely been some discussion about this, because this is an example right here of a like, we've been saying multibillion dollar corporation, millions of dollars in budget, and most of the folks watching out there are not going to be working on that scale that's right? So could you talk a little bit about how to apply these techniques to more of, like a solo preneurs who is working with a local small business? I'm just gonna boil down for us the techniques that you see that can apply to not just your fifty billion dollar corporations but your mom and pop the most important thing to know is thie amount of money and the size and the scale does not matter it doesn't matter it is always it doesn't matter whether it's ten dollars or ten million dollars there's issues and there's there's planning and there's personalities and we have to understand what's going on and we have to separate the issues from the interest. So the first thing to know is that you know this this hypothetical situation based on a real case study that I had personal experience with it it could happen doing a great branding project for the corner grocery store so you always want to have a team you always want to have a planning session where you've discussed with your team members what the issues are and begin to try and scope out what the possibilities are with the client you always need to be looking for an opportunity to change the context too to help the client so you want to uncover what is the client's most fundamental issue and did you did we actually nail what the fundamental issue is here what is it getting it out tomorrow it's possible yes time yeah yeah yeah time try and cut that in half and make them look like a better company creator and yeah we're like more more consumer friendly yeah get to market get to market there's a lot of money hanging on this but it would be a lot of money if it if it was a smaller amount of money and it was for a small local business the pet food store could have exactly the same issues that this giant corporation is we've spent money to add this thing to our business now we have to start getting some revenue to pay back that money so that issue is exactly the same large or small and then you go ahead back one thing that I really really noticed but then there was like hey if we can get it out to mark it so we can save them millie that's right and like that would go great tio tio not ted of charles charles explain that shrunk like a we'll save you even more money by getting this done faster for you right and for him it's like well that's kind of a no brainer like if we can save money by spending a bit more it could be it could be it's a risk yeah there's a risk here so then shelly in narva is having a little trouble with this so suggesting that right now she says in this economy sulla preneurs working with other small local businesses don't have the luxury of an inquiry period it's can I afford this before anything else happens? So how do you realm and dealing with those folks who do they call it they say this is what I want how much does it cost and that's all they want to know uh, well you can't give a price if you don't know what required so you should always patiently explained to them why you need to know a little bit more before you give them a price you can certainly say that I have some fixed fees for things for incident in the world of photography we often have a day rate that is a fixed fee on there's nothing wrong with quoting your fixed fee because that sort of public if you will but but scoping out the job without knowing what the scope is is it just doesn't make any sense. And so you should just simply explain that let's spend a little time talking about this can we meet? Can we skype? Can we you know, just talk about it so that together we can we can focus on what needs to be done and therefore how much it should cost and how much time it should take love it yeah, thank you very much sure appreciate it um so so we've now seen the two teams planning and uh and tomorrow we will see the final result they will negotiate with each other and, uh I'm sure you're all eager to find out what happens what will happen but before we do that I want to say um the these underlying interests here so tabitha's underlying interest she wants to maintain an advance her position within the corporation that's what I would say for tabatha charles underlying interest is I need to look good when I go to the top guy with this proposal for the design firm that's going to do the branding and the product design for this ted wants to build on his existing career success is in within within the better world group they want a project that fits their value system a better world design is about building a better world, so this is a perfect project for them because that's the core of what they want to do so that's what alison wants, she wants a project that will in fact fulfill her vision of a better world. And of course ben he's just the aggressive guy in the room and he just wants to win and so he's cleverly come up with a proposal that might indeed leapfrog the conference competition but we don't know yet and then we have cindy and cindy like tabatha seems a little uneasy about her position here and seems to kind of bounce back and forth a little bit probably because she's new she's not she hasn't worked with this team that long but she does have the advantage of having worked for the competition so those are the kinds of underlying interests that I would be looking for so that I would know better how to deal with these people and reinforce what they would like to have happen no with which you actually go to a client me like maybe being being willing to ask that question like hey is there anything in this that you're really like trying to look for yes yes absolutely o k try and just straight up ask absolutely yeah yeah what is the most important goal here for you what are the issues that you're most concerned about absolutely yeah just asked him straight out yeah develop relationship and show the interest by asking in fact he said that you did the white board technique yeah you proposed it on the phone yesterday with a client yeah hundred percent twenty minutes tougher leaving I proposed it and like just as like a lake thank you this is what I can do and what can I help you? You know moving forward here let's have a meaning and talk about what how we might send this out to get exactly build the plan yeah build a plan together yeah yeah and they said yes yeah yeah right yeah, because you're obviously operating in their best interests and that's what ben is trying to do here too he's saying they need to get to market let's propose a faster way to get to market maybe we can get our other clients to put the work off so it's always in the best interests of client so that's the other lesson from this thing is behaving the way that's always in the best interests of the client, right? So tomorrow chapter the final chapter before we go to next I want to tell you another little story and this story was told to me by a photographer who I've known for a number of years and um and it's about helping a client achieve a goal. The client was a large corporation and they had a big in house design group and the in house design group, you know, bought photography from outside photographers. And one of the problems that the inhouse design group was having is that the photography was terrible and the reason the photography was terrible is that the marketing people within the corporation were art directing the photography so they were going around the in house design group and they were and they were basically saying we want the shot set up like this we wanted to look like that, etcetera and it was food the organization was involved in food and um and so it was food photography which needs toe look inviting and tasteful and lovely and exactly what you want to eat and the uh the photographer who had developed a relationship with the creative director within the company and the creative director should share this problem he'd called the photographer him because the photographer had done absolutely beautiful food photography I mean it was just exquisite best of the best he had a fantastic reputation he had shot for some of the best food magazines in the world and the creative director asked him to come in and show his book and he did and they were discussing this problem of over art direction from them from the marketing people and the the uh the uh the photographer said look why don't we why don't I do a whole bunch of really luscious prince of my best photography that fits your need perfectly and we will have a showing and invite the marketing people to come down and see it let's just set up a little gallery in the in the in house design groups conference room and invite the marketing people down to see the photography and just just share it as an experience and so they did filled the conference room with these luscious prince of food and and vegetables and and all these good things and the marketing people we're kind of in and out and in and out and there was a little a little coffee one day and they came in and looked at the pictures and and uh uh discussed in the pictures with the creative director and then one of the marketing people, one of the heads of marketing said, you know, the food stuff we're doing is not nearly as good as this stuff, you know, it's like, how can we get this kind of photography? How can we get this kind of photography to use on our website and to use on our menus and to use in the advertising and all of the materials that we d'oh and, uh and, uh, creative director said, well, you know, there's been an awful lot of involvement with marketing in the art direction of the of the photography and this this particular photographer, uh, works entirely on his own. And so, uh, the head of the marketing group uh said, well, let's, let's, try that well, what if we what if we simply wrote up a brief, describe what we wanted in the shot, described the ingredients, had one of our chefs make it up, work with the photographer but not direct the photographer and see what we get problem soft account one for the photographer, so the creative director did not need to go to senior management and say, get these marketing people off my back he did not need to go to the marketing people and say, you're over directing my photographers. Um, he all he did was let them discover. Let them discover what the right thing to do. Waas. So he let the photographs paint a vision of what the possibilities were, just like an was describing how a vision was created, first by the designer of her kitchen, which changed the way she thought about presenting design herself, when, when the creative directors, what he wanted to do was simply tell the marketing people to back off. But his thing's instincts were that that wouldn't work, because they needed to discover that for themselves. So it was a very gentle way of of moving them forward in a way that was good for the corporation and for himself. And for this photographer, who got a great assignment by scoping out what the possibilities were in a planning meeting with the creative director.