Lessons

Lesson Info

Creating Systems and the State of the Industry

We talked about this a little bit in the beginning why portrait events? Does anybody have any questions like just before we even get started, why would you consider a portrait event? No well, it wasn't related to a portrait event but um and I'm sure we're going to be covering all of this since we go but one thing I wrote down with fundraising charity auctions versus with a business because I get asked we probably all dio you know, stuff auctions charities and love him want to do it, but I also want it I'm really concerned about growing my business and the financial piece of it yes so I know you mentioned that earlier so that's one thing I'm like how do you balance them and how do you and it sounds maybe strange to say how do you convert that into profit? But that is such a good question and we'll and we'll talk about this again on day three, but I will throw this out there that I always tell everyone when we all want to give you know I mean that's part of human nature, I know for me I ...

need to give, you know, that's that's just part of part of who we are, but you can't give a lot unless you make a lot so make a lot of money first so that you can give a lot and you know, if you think about that first as a business person I have to be profitable before I can give that kind of helps put those events into place and one of the things that when I host my charity events and and we'll go through that process but when I do the charity events I want to raise a lot of money for my charity but I also have to be a business person and make money for my business and so their plan accordingly you know, we donate certain parts I make certain parts and nobody has to feel bad about that. You know, the more that we can learn in our business is the more we can give so that's a very good question and we will definitely go through the whole process on sunday so all right so okay, well have actually something one more thing um first of all no one could believe that you have a twenty six year does to you for that and also he say one more time the name of the your blogged that has the downloadable yes it's photo talk forum dot com and and then slash blawg what's the block and I could flip back through stacey right there. Um dr photo talk form dot com slash blag um that's the photo talk forum is our is my form that I have online um it's an online community for people really committed to growing their businesses I know there's a lot of photography forms out there I I manage it and so we have nothing negative going on there's no ram and rare about anybody or you know, vendors it's and it has happened here and there and I delete it it's gone so it's a very positive place but very business oriented so people wanted to grow their business were there I will be we've got a thread now about real kids and definitely will be continuing this conversation there as well after this is over, so but go there to the blogged and on the right you'll find the business plan work book and download that one of the things that I hear a lot I do a lot of consultations and mentoring with with photographers that's one of the things that I do and really enjoy but one of the things I don't enjoy our excuses and I hear them a lot especially these days when there is a photographer on every corner there just is period we all have to accept that fact and figure out how we're gonna be different be unique um and then how we're going to communicate that we'll talk about that but I want to throw this out there today to you that no matter what your you know what you've got going on your head in your head and I think I hear are um you know well, the photographer down the street is is cheaper and she's copying everything that I d'oh or in my little town nobody will pay that much chinese or if only I had a retail space you know, there's there's just all these excuses that come up and we're going to go through something today, but I want you to think about all the benefits to how you do business where you do business and who you do business with and get rid of those excuses because if we can do that we can look at the positives that are there that we can learn to communicate then to our clients into the marketplace, so get rid of the excuses dennis, wait lee said there are two primary choices in life to accept conditions as they exist or accept responsibility for changing them and I think that's pretty powerful and, you know, in two thousand nine I could have said, you know what everybody and they're freaking mother is a photographer I can't compete I'm sick of this everybody's copying everything ideo and, you know, shut the doors and went to work at mcdonald's I don't know um I used to cut hair I cut hair for about ten years and own a hair salon and there are lots of days when I kind of feel like, you know what? I never took care home you know, I got to go cut hair and went home and did my thing was with my kids and, um you know, but we have chosen this and how can we make it the most positive thing? And so instead of sitting there and saying, my god, I just accept this I'm going to say, what can I do to change it? So I just wanna encourage you that as we go along here, I'm taking responsibility for things really gives you power, so take responsibility for the things that are around you in the responsibility to change them and that's going to give you the, you know, the gumption to be ableto continue and go on failure is relative, you know, there is somebody that says, um, you know, makes an excuse or feels like they failed and to somebody else, if they, you know, they would love to be there, um, successes relative also, um there was there's a little story about it was, you know, years ago in a shoe store, a shoe salesman sent out his two best people to this remote area and said, go and sell shoes, and he gets the letter back from one of them, and it says, um, nobody wear shoes here, I can't sell any shoes, the next guy sends a letter back, and it says nobody sells shoes here. What a great opportunity to sell shoes, you know, and it's all about perspective and how you look at things it's all relative learn from the mistakes learn from the things that are happening around you and grow from it, um or ignore it, get rid of it. You know, we've all got things that we have to deal with and we all have things every day and, um I don't know about you guys, but, uh, you guys all have kids here, right? Uh, not mei li now. Okay, um, everybody else I know a lot of you out there and and whether you have kids or not, you've got somebody that's important to you somebody that you're responsible too, even if it's a dog you know there's you you've got friends, you've got a life that you want to live and for me excuse me, I went digital back in two thousand and that was a really early time to go digital. I had spent uh, three or four years and film and I was in a very non technical person. And when you see me shoot tomorrow, he will understand that I barely get how my camera works. I like things a simple assed possible, but in two thousand I was still in that stage of running around with a mommy a r b so it's this big honkin medium format camera that you look down in to shoot and the image is backwards so you're having to compose in it and nobody ever told me I should put it on a tripod so I chased kids around back yards with this in this thing and that's how I started shooting and so not technical and it's so do not make sense to me that I would actually open up my people magazine or my range finder magazine and I would say okay, this I'm shooting a family outside this image was shot a family outside and it says five point six, one hundred twenty fifth and I would set my camera and I go I don't know anything else and and there was no you know automatic there was no manual all right noah on magic and so I was going and doing this for a couple years and somehow making it work I don't know how, but in two thousand one of my friends had bought a uh what was it a kodak five sixty which is if anybody had one of those back in the day it's a doorstep now I mean it's junk but the codex six five sixty was out and it had started at seventy two thousand dollars gone down to thirty two thousand dollars and then come down to about nine ten thousand dollars and right at that stage one of my very good friends had bought this kodak five sixty and we were at a convention and we all went out and we were photographing together and everybody at out there medium formats and therefore by fives and they're shooting are you know and I'm just there you know doing my thing and at that time it was all boys because it was very still male dominated in ninety nine two thousand um and you know and here's me the girl who chases kids in the backyard and but we we shot all this stuff and then at the end craig drags out his digital camera and my friend michael sorry zo was with me at the time he's a photographer in omaha nebraska and he was with me and he you know I wanted to shoot this digital camera this new thing and I came over and I started taking a couple pictures and could look at the back of the camera to see what was happening and today this is all like uh of course but back then this was like this was crazy you know that you could shoot and actually see what was going on and michael saw light bulbs go off for me and so he said I want you to stop it up two stops I want you to do this I want you to that and I started changing the you know, the things on my camera and actually being able to see what happened when I did that, and I left, we were at a graveyard shooting, I left that graveyard and said, I have to have a digital camera and went back to the convention, and the next morning they had a swapping shop thing. I laid out all my mommy equipment on the table and about all digital did it in a day. I called my friend gary box and said, what else do I have? Tohave? And he said, you need a laptop, you need a projector, you need, you know, this is that I bought it all and went not only digital but crazy overnight, so and that was back in two thousand when there wasn't anybody to help, there wasn't, you know, you didn't have online workshops and all the uco with that fun things, go to tow, tow, learn your gear, and and so I literally learned digital crying in front of my computer, and and that is a true story. I also I I opened up my first studio, my first four walls in two thousand and got really busy really fast, and it was a at the time, there weren't a lot of you know, women photographing kids and backyards and just you know, that wasn't the thing it was more traditional poor jester and I'm not the lifestyle stuff and so, um, a cough very busy to re fastened while that now seems like that success thing for me, it was a lot of failure at that time because I did get so busy so fast I opened up the studio, had all this responsibility and buy all the skier I have three kids at home and I crashed and burned. I mean, every single night of my life I was at that studio and I would go home at the end of the day, you know, work all day and I'd go home and I'd, um my husband had actually quit his job to stay home with the kids so that I could run my studio and which at the time seemed like a good idea, but, uh, you know, it's really it was not a good idea. Um I had a huge chip on my shoulder had to prove something with this new business and, you know and and the success that came with it and, um, every night I would go home and I would play good mom, you know, I would go and do dinner and homework and ball games whenever I would need to dio and then I was back at work every single night of my life and a lot of nights I would fall asleep in my computer and, you know, wake up three four in the morning and finally get myself back home so I could sleep a couple hours before taking the kids to school and not a way to live I hurt my family, I got divorced, you know, it's just it was a really hard crash and burn time for me and I I share that because I know a lot of you out there struggle with that digital has eaten our lives, period, it is eating our lives, and so putting systems in place was not an option for me. Um, at the end of that time, I did get divorced at the end of that first year in two thousand, I looked at my business and I thought, I always thought it was a good business person because I really love working with people I love sales and marketing and that whole process and I'd run a hair salon for many, many years and thought I was a good business person, but that ended that year. I realize how much money I had brought into the business and how broke I wass and not just financially broke, I was mentally broken and, you know, just I wasn't happy it wasn't it being a good person for anybody in my life, and so, you know, and it, and it wasn't just at the end of that year, it took me a while, but but I did realize that I had to make changes, it wasn't an option, and the only other option for me, if I wasn't going to change my business, was to quit because I couldn't keep doing what I was doing to myself in my family. So, um, I don't know why I went off on that tangent on that slide, but, lori, I just I want to say that people in the chat rooms are so appreciative that you are just so honest from the get go. And, um, dj photo eighty one says, it gives me hope for being knew your name is saying that while she is speaking to me, so people get thanks, thanks for letting me know that, um, and I do that share that because I do know that there are people that are sitting and and and I'll tell you the day that it really changed for me, um, my youngest one now is fourteen, and, uh, there was a night when I was at my computer, and and my kids, a lot of times, came to my studio after school or you know, whatever and hung out and played and I had a big space and there was a lot now in my studio there's even a basketball court you know there's like we have tons of space but in the studio that I had been I was sitting at my computer and I may have even been a home when I don't remember but I just remember jackson coming to me more than once saying mom when you gonna be finished and I would say just a few more minutes just a few more minutes and then he came back okay? I'm almost done almost done and all of a sudden I don't know how many times that happened but I looked and he was sleeping on the floor beside my computer and I mean my heart was broken and you know, when I stopped at that moment I said this has to change I don't have an option to do this anymore and so I'm going to share you know, with you guys over the next three days those changes that were made and how to make them and putting a system in place for whatever you're choosing to do whether it's portrait events or whatever part of your business systems make a difference if you've got a system, you always have something to fall back on and it doesn't mean that I don't have nights now where I'm up all night but now when I do I ask for permission whether it's my boyfriend or my kids or whatever it is whoever is at home there with me I'm going to ask them you know and say I need a night this week that I can I need to work so you know, and now jackson's fourteen and it's not as important to him that I'm with him every second but it's still important to me that he knows this is when I'm working and this is when I'm not this is when you can count on me so we'll talk about a little bit about scheduling to, um find the solutions to your issues list your opportunities I'm a big believer in writing things down and hopefully this week you guys and you're in your workbooks you'll write things down and really think about all the opportunities that are available to you and to your business if you're not prepared to be wrong, you'll never come up with anything original and I love this too. I love that, you know, we have to be prepared to go out there and make mistakes and and to fail if you want to call it that I don't I don't see mistakes or failure s failure I see I see it as opportunity for growth and you know, things that we can learn from the mistakes that we've made so um and this is that that business plan workbook hopefully some of you already downloaded that make a plan for success um, writing those business plans and writing goals is a huge step in seeing what you want to have happen happen if we can write those things down and, you know, always, uh go back and look and see what you wrote down last year and six months ago and one of the things that happened to me that was really exciting that I didn't even realize was happening at the time that it happened, but years ago I was cutting hair and just photographing my kids outside and, um, you know, we run it once a month, I'd go shoot a roll back in my film and that's how I fell in love with photography and owned the hair salon and I was hanging things hanging portrait of the kids in the hair salon and started having my clients asked me, you know, who took those pictures and so started photographing their kids, and I know lots of people started that way these days, but uh but, you know, it grew very organically for me like that, but I decided one day I just walked in the hair salon and I decided, you know what? And I've never worked for anybody else I've had my own business since I was sixteen years old started cutting hair open up a hair salon when I was eighteen on didn't know anything else so that part of it didn't scare me so much starting a business but I walked in the hair salon and said I think I'm done cutting hair I'm like over it and sold the hair salon worked for the new owner one day a week so I could continue to make some cash but I went to another studio locally and I lived in waco, texas at the time but I went to tim flanagan studio in waco, texas who he was the one photographer that you know, I was researching and checking everybody out and looking at everybody's work and his work too spoke to me it was, you know, beautiful black and white uh he had been trained from tim and beverly walled in if you have ever heard of them I'm also darden drake tim kelly where some of his influences but loved him flannigan's work and so I went and knocked on his door one day and I said, you know, introduce myself and I said I love love your work and you know, concede this this and this you know, happening with it I would love to come and be here and I just want to be in your space and be around you and if you will let me I will work for you for free and um I'll do you're selling your marketing whatever you want me to do back at the house staff on a care card negatives I just want to be here and at the time tim tim was there and his wife cherie wasn't there and he just kind of laughed like yeah crazy girl you know, thanks for stopping by and uh but he did take all my information and later that night his wife called me and she said you know, I know you met with him today he was a little shocked if I you know the offer of you coming to work for us for free and and she said but I have to tell you we've been praying for you and it's near exactly what we need and we just didn't know how to look for you and there you were and so I did I went to work for them for free they still don't pay me but um I worked there for about a year and got to be in their space well I was only cutting hair one day a week single mom at the time and with my two older kids and uh they tim and cherry decided that they would send me to texas school and if you guys aren't aware there's all over the country there are affiliate professional photography schools and texas school is one of the biggest ones it's it's very fun it's very educational but they decided they wanted it just to send me to texas school, um, kind of, as you know, part of paying me for being there, and I didn't I didn't want to tell them at the time that I didn't have enough money for a hotel room and because I didn't want them to feel responsible for that. So I drove to texas school, and I camped out for an entire week to be able to attend texas school and learn, and I would believe class and driving campground and shower in the little campground shower, blow dry my hair with my air conditioner and go to class the next day and nobody dio, um, but I camped out, and one of the things that I wrote on my notebook that week was, I want to teach a texas school, and this was a girl who knew nothing. I mean, I did not know enough stop from a boom box. I mean, I didn't I knew nothing, and I didn't even remember that I don't think I ever in my head really aspired to be teaching and speaking and all that, um, but years later, when I was asked to teach at texas school, went back to get my notebook out, just to see, you know what I had learned, you know, for five, six years ago, whenever it was and I pulled it out and on the front cover of my notebook I'd written I will teach you check the school and you know it's like it's kind of almost that subconscious power that we have when something leaves our mind and our thought process and gets written down on paper and it's so powerful so another tangent you can like tell me get back on track laurie but make a plan for your success write those things down write down your goals that was it download um always trust your choices you know, trust yourself and be more of you there's all the time, you know, going back to those excuses people that are saying, you know, if only had I had this personality trader I have you know, I could do that or could be this, you know, be more of who you are that's where success comes is when we don't think about the failures, we think about the successes and about the, you know, strength versus weaknesses I'm always a little, uh what do you call it? Little homework I guess I give is to write down your strengths and that's one of the things in your workbook you know, think about your strengths and every single time I'm in a workshop there is somebody that I will say, well, I'm this to a fault as and that's what they're saying is their strength when instead of just communicating you know, I'm giving to a fault which they're saying I get taken advantage of, right? Um you know, get rid of that to a fault if you're giving person be more giving that's that's where success comes from is where you can be all that you can be so think about the positive and the strengths and not the negatives abraham lincoln said most people are about as happy as they make up their mind to be and I believe that's true you know every day and you hear you know, studies and reading you know, different things about laughing and the power laughing and even smiling you know you feel bad put a smile on your face and guess what your mental you know, it changes um so we're all about as happy as we make up our minds to be be the best you can be where you are with what you've got and um with this I just want I want to share one more story I'm sorry I'm going off on little story tangents, but uh okay, um you know, we all we all you know, all wish and dream and you know, it is that this is a little bit different than dreaming, but you know, we all wish that you know, if only this and if only that and this would be my perth perfect circumstances and it's okay to put dreams on paper, the things that you want to achieve and want to get towe where you are, but I met with a group of girls monthly for a year six photographers and they all met together we'd go to dinner and sometimes they wouldn't even talk about photography or business. Uh, sometimes we would, but we got together at one point and I said, you know, I want everybody to just sit down and write out their dream studio, your dream business situation and what that looks like and let's just all put it on paper and that seal him up and let's get him out in a year and look at him and so we all sat down and played some music and drinks wine and hung out and just rode out our dream studio and about three months later one of the girls called me and said, you know, hey, when we get together on thursday night, can you bring those dream studio papers? And I said, you know why it's been three months we're talking about she said, just bring it to spring and so we got to the dinner table and and she took out her piece of paper and started reading it and as she read it she started you know, the tears started coming and you know what she just said? Every single thing that I wrote down has happened for me and it's I know it's because I wrote it down I put it into you know, concrete on paper this is what's gonna happen and doing that allowed me to start taking the steps to make that happen and you know, so we all talked about it and it was exciting great and some of the other girls started opening up their papers and reading them and it got to me and I'm supposed to be like the leader of this group, you know? And I'm not really wanting open mine and it's, you know, we get around and they, you know, were saying I woke when here's open yours and so I did and I had put out this kind of dream studio what what my life was gonna look like after the the kids were out of the house because at the time that really was my focus. And while that was ok, you know, to have that dream in that place the lesson that I learned that that day was to dream where I am and you know, dream where you are dream within your circumstances, the circumstances that you have today, what is the very best thing, very best circumstance, very best experience you know all those things that you can make happen with what you're given at this moment and so I learned the importance of dreaming where I am and so I would encourage you guys to do that as well and not always be thinking about you know, the well if only well in five years when the kids are in school or when the kids are on the house or you know, whatever stage of life you're in right now um you know, I uh my youngest is a freshman now in high school and I don't want to dream five years on the road I cannot stay in the thought of not having a baby at home and I used to always think you know what? What what happened? I don't remember life before kids I really don't and you know, what's gonna happen when when I don't have jackson at home anymore and now I know you have grandkids that's what happens next so um you know, but dream where you are so all that leads to the state of our industry anybody have any comments about that? What you what you think about what's going on with our industry right now? Absolutely I mean, you have to nail right on the head by saying like everybody and their mama's a photographer and um what blows me away is there are so many, um moms who become photographers after having children and I mean that is that's kind of my situation but I've been shooting since I was a little kid so it's kind of just a natural progression I decided to go into business after I had kids because they just kind of drew me into it how dare you kids I have ah three year old boy and a five and a half year old girl um so my kids were pretty young still so what you were talking about it's not going to go about you know, dreaming where you are really, really hit home for me because I'm always thinking okay, when they're in school like and I can I can do this but now I have three days a week where they're both in school at the same time for a little block of time and I am working more and I'm working during that time and it's awesome and I'm just kind of trying to mold my goals around that and so that's that's usually I'm sorry home based studio yes yeah and I I travel to people I mean I just recently converted in my living room to a studio for a shoot the other for a glamour shoot the other day and it was very successful and so there's potential definitely for for that um but anyway um it's it's really hard to break past that like that the availability of of high end equipment to consumers and people who are like oh I can use this that means I can go into business is a photographer and just giving passed that this is just it's like a phenomenon you know mom tog refers you know and there are a lot of them in my community and um I definitely am at the point where I need to stand apart and and I do stand apart but I need to start um you know, fine tuning that more so so and that's good and that's a really good point and I want to tell you to kristin that everybody feels that everybody feels that no matter what level or stage you are in um everybody feels it and so and we are going to talk about some ways tio set yourself apart and be different than the mom ta gra for because I'm a mom ta gra fir I don't say that with a disdain at all no but you know but we're all everybody feels it um the fact is that everybody can be a photographer these days and lots of people are and it's an easy entry you know there's a lot of people lot of people who um either have left corporate job security or moms that their kids are now in school and they need to make a few extra dollars or you know whatever it is there's everybody can and everybody can take nice pictures you know? We used to be able to compete on the fact that you know, I'm the best photographer and down, you know and um that that's never come out of my mouth, but I'm saying, you know, as as photographers in general that could be a competition, you know, that could be something that you couldn't compete on it's not the case anymore everybody can be a decent photographer and we all know that even the one's that aren't even the crappy photographers get, you know, one hundred post on their facebook page oh that's the most amazing picture I've ever seen in my entire life you know, you are when I'm speaking toward us so janice, you're getting from me I just wanted to add I was so glad that you were talking about the no excuses because, you know, we hear so much like the complaints about this the photography thing and I know that a couple of my for top male photography friend photographer friends were mocking me when I started teo expand tio also being a professional photographer as well as professional blogger and putting me down for being another one of these moms that have entered and there's so everybody calls himself a talker and I was said to them at least one of them I said, you know what? I was a mom blogger before there were all these mum bloggers, okay? And I started my sight, nobody was doing exactly what we were doing then all of sudden there's times of us, everybody has a block, and even actually, ironically, these guys are now lagers too, because, you know, because everybody has over you and I guess I just always wanted to say to that because I'm a very positive person and I believe in s o I loved what you were saying because the reality is if we can't accept, the world is changing, the social media is changed, and if we can't embrace change, then we will fail. And if you want to complain about the change of the situation, you're not going to six see, but it's not just and so for me, for blogging and people like okay, well now there's also money vargas everybody's a blocker? Well, that doesn't hurt me at all because a that just pushes me to be better now I just have to keep being better. I am getting better just like everybody's getting better. I was a photographer. I get better as a blogger, I get better. And so the competition, if we look at it as not all of these moms are competing in our we're competing with um, no, not really, because most of all, a lot of them they still can't achieve the kind of work that we can achieve for them and just like is a blogger, you know that there they can't achieve what I can achieve its okay everybody's on the same path and and so I just find that if we approach it from a no excuses point of great everybody so now they can appreciate photography more now that's what how I look at it is that say a lot of the moms that I know who have the digital cameras, they take a picture they're like okay, mine doesn't look like yours I need you to push it, you know, and that's the case is in fact they're becoming more educated about photography even this month that those that I haven't become professionals so a to those photographers that such of the males that are frustrated that we moms or entering the field stop whining, you know, everybody's not talking to you, honey, but you know, in the blogging that happened to us too, and you have to embrace the change, you have to use it to make yourself better and to find ways to differentiate yourself and most won't no excuses don't want about it it's great now they're more educated consumers now there's people who appreciate photography more and so they're looking for the professional photographer to photograph their children so I look at it and try to take it in a positive spin. Yeah, that's a that's a good point. Very good point of excellent point. And laurie, we wanted to read off a couple things. What people are saying online about the state of the industry? Yeah, good. Um, and christina k says, I think our industry is undervalued. We need tto learn how to raise it back up that people can be do yourself photographers, but there are still times when a pro should be hired and, you know, just like you're saying, I am a mom, I'm a photographer. Things that irk me is there's such a negative stigma associated with the two terms. The fact is, I know how hard I'm working to make a successful business, and I hope that it will set me apart from the rest who aren't putting in the time to learn and grow, um, and and that's great, too. And, you know, I think one of the things that we have to realize is, you know, really, ernie, as we can see in this group here, um, it is more women dominated. Now we have a more women dominated industry on dh, that is, because of the moms that air have come on board. And are able teo photograph kids and have the perspective of that um, you know, just even ten years ago it was still very, very male dominated and over the years the percentages of just really shifted, which I think is an exciting thing and I don't think there's I don't think there is any negative connotation anymore for a woman photographer except with the old men e s o s oh, I don't think anybody has to worry about that I mean take that chip off your shoulder right away um kind of the first thing that you said tell me that again because there was something that was going to say about that sure, yeah let me go back and find that, um it wass I don't remember if he lost the fight go for their there you go you got it. I think our industry is undervalued and we need to learn how to raise it back up. The people can be d I y photographers but they're still times when a pro should be hired. Yes. Okay, thank you. And what I was gonna say was even thinking back to the hair salon days. Anybody can cut their kid's hair, you know, but when do you choose to go to professional tohave your child's haircut or your own haircut or your own air colored or whatever um you know, and so and I and I I like to think about that even in the photography industry my target client she's got the same camera ideo she calls me asking me what kind of lens she should have to photograph her kids, sports and she's talking about a two thousand dollar lens, you know, three thousand garlands so she's got the equipment, but she she doesn't clean your own house even though she could she doesn't hang your own art on her wall she's gotten into your designer do it she wasn't more own yard do our own you know I mean that's that's something that she's going to hire out and the same with me she's going to hire someone to hang the art on our wall, not do it herself she's going to take pictures every single day and she's going to do well but she's taking pictures for the scrapbook in the sports and the you know, on all these separate things and and, you know and that's another thing um, I'm surprised nobody has brought up yet with the state of the industry um on one of the reasons that I feel like my business has continued to be profitable and I'm still in business is that I don't sell digital files, we I offer them, but it's not my main product