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How Others Did it: Daniel Pardi

There was a study that came out recently that showed that you can get most of the tangible benefits of, like, hell of long left of long lifespan and from just like a seven minute high intensity workout, it doesn't need to be your entire day. It doesn't need to be something you spend your entire life doing. You don't spend hours now is the gym. This is a great example of one of those, like if this. If I can't do this, then I'll do that. Exercise is so for you if you can't make it to the gym for whatever reason, If you miss it and you don't want to pay the penalty, then you have to do a 12 minute workout is a great, great method to make sure that you keep yourself on track. And I guarantee that this is the kind of work out that this is a good supplement as well to a strong this workout because whereas a power lifting routine uses a lot of muscle strength, this is going to use high intensity cardio strength, and you get a lot done in 12 minutes. I can still see your breathing loudly. It's...

fantastic. Cool. Um, we're gonna bringing on another guest in a few minutes. Daniel, party from dance plan and and, uh, human dot me or human oeste on me. But before we move on, are there any questions or any chatter and chatter that people are really curious how to develop this into part of their habit building process? And we've got a question from one views saying how to learn to do V ups using the habit building process. I had to learn to do V apps using the happy building process. Well, you can definitely check out videos of V ups learning to do something, especially something Ah v Up is a simple process. It's a matter of just learning how to do it. It's about isolating your core and about trying to start off. You might not be able to get your hands to your legs, but you start off about focusing on doing it at all. V ups are a good a good a great workout for for working on your core, and as you start to do V EPS more and more, you'll be able to isolate and feel your core more where you can actually, like, be ableto hold it in and suck it in within your stomach. One thing I wanted to bring up is that a lot of people have trouble with the lower back, and they find they think that they have lower back issues and they often resort to stretching oftentimes yoga and in no way is stretching or yoga bad. But sometimes it's not. That's not the issue. Sometimes the issue is muscle, and I noticed this myself that when I started to work on my squad as my squad got stronger, it wasn't just my strength that increased. It was my my my. The way I stood, I could start to stand up better. In my my, uh, my posture got better, and in particular my lower back stopped being used. Instead, the muscles we were activating were being used. There's one muscle in particular, Aiken contrite a demo of this for people who haven't done much muscle building and and I've noticed to be pretty common with women. If they're. If you have lower back problems, you have a job where you walk all day. Often the issue is there is a particular muscle that's called the I forget what it's called. But there's a muscle that's the stretches right here, and a great way to train it is two in the morning while you're in bed is, too. If you lay down while you're in bed and you sit like this and then you try to exhale, so you go. But then you continue to exhale. There's nothing left that from there. You're going to just suck in your stomach and hold your core deeply, making sure there's no breath left and you just hold it really tight. You should be talking like this. It's gonna sound really weird. Right talk, but you're basically holding this, and you try to work up toe holding this muscle for 30 to 60 seconds at a time. At the beginning, it's going to be almost impossible 5 to 10 seconds max, but you'll be able to move it up to 50 seconds. 60 seconds. And as you move it up to 60 seconds and then several sets of several reps of 60 seconds, you'll notice that your that this muscle you've never felt before starts to get activated, and actually your lower back will stop being used as much Instead, this muscle will be activated and will help keep you steady and strong throughout the day. There's a great workout you can dio in the mornings without even having to go to a gym just in your bed, easily inserted into your morning routine that you can use to start training your lower back muscles. It's great last April and Marty before we go on during those exercises, how do you think that? How easy do you can be to incorporate into your daily routine? Do you think that's something you could get into the habit of following? Yeah, definitely. It's short enough that you can easily incorporate that into your morning routine. If you choose toe add exercise into that, Um, and the work I was, you know, tough enough that you'll get results if you do it over a long period of time. Do you already work out? You already have a routine. I don't currently work out starting November 3rd, though, that start November 3rd. I will. On April. How was it for you? Yeah, it was great. I mean, I was even thinking, um or Emily, like your morning routine, where you don't days you don't go to your workout class in the morning. You could do that before your shower. Uh huh. Did you have it like that already? Aprils Have a yoga have it, but that's more intense. Yes, it would seem to be Yeah, And like think about exercise is that there is no perfect workout. There's different workouts that are solid for different goals and different tactics and whatever you're working on. But anything is better than nothing. So the thing I really love about minute athlete is that it just tells you what to do. And this is like, so important going to the gym. People don't know what to do. That ability BJ five Behavioral model The Ability Axis is really difficult when people have never been exercising before. And this APP tells you to do strong lifts that we mentioned recently tells you what do strong. This is the power lifting app. I find that the beauty of having a personal trainer is rarely the actual training. It's someone making sure I get to the gym. That is accountability, and someone just telling you what to do ability don't have to think about it. I just show up and I do it. Uh, and so absolutely 12 minute athlete are a great way. Teoh, get yourself in the habit of doing any kind of exercise at all. But right now I'm really excited to bring up a friend of mine, A close friend of mine. I've never met before, but we've met on Skype multiple times. Daniel, Party. Who's the CEO of Dan's plan? Welcome, Daniel. You get a couple stools up unless you want a kettle bell or whatever. Yeah, well, hey, it's gonna be Oh, yeah. It's been a while since we talked. I think we did. Ah. Interview three months ago or so about that. Yeah. Yeah. So, den, it's like a seat. All right. Uh, right. Water. Yeah, but damn, I'm fascinated. We started talking on, and I remember we did. I was doing 25 interviews with a bunch of people, and yours was, like, amazing. I was like, Whoa, that was the 1st 1 that I was like. This is incredible. I gotta send this out to everyone. And, um, can you introduce yourself to everybody? But you've been working on. So, um, my name's dan party. I do research at Stanford and in the Netherlands. I look at how sleep deprivation influences decision making, which is really a fascinating subject to think that we would like to think that we're in control over our own thoughts and decisions, but that could be manipulated when you're not getting enough sleep and it can happen beyond your awareness of it. So I look at how sleep loss influences decision making on food choice. I work also, Um, I have a company called Human OS and Dance Plan. There's basically two different companies with similar technology. Those companies utilize a behavior model that I developed about five years ago called the Loop Model, to sustain health behaviors. And then I also work with naval special warfare Navy seals to help them with maintain vigilance in a non optimal work environment. A little bit of a non optimal Exactly. I was always my dream was always to be a Navy seal, Yeah, but not actually be a Navy SEAL. I just wanted to go through like the Navy Seal training period, and they have a hell week, which is a period of like what it's 5 to 6 days was sleeping. A total of four hours. Yeah, it's a it's a It's a little scary that they try to in your them to the effects of sleep loss by giving them less sleep for an extended period of time. So that means make them tough through exposure. So you'll see that a surgeon who has been doing it for a long time if she has to get up in perform surgery in the middle of the night, she's not gonna have as much of an emotional toll because she's done it many times before, all right, and that that is a process of toughening through exposure. And so the process that these seals go through is we're just not gonna give you enough sleep for a long period of time, and it does have one benefit of making them feel like, you know I can. I can perform. But it also there are really objective impairments to that, so you might feel less sensitive to the effects of sleep loss. But it might also make it so that you're more likely Teoh engage in friendly fire or make real critical errors that have lives at stake. So it's a tough situation. I remember talking to you about objective versus perceptual, um, belief in your sleep loss or is your sleep activity. And so I'm interested in knowing that maybe seal perspective, because have they managed to reduce the amount of sleep they need? Or is it just that they are? They're awake, and they do what they do, and it's a lot of it's instinctual, habitual, but they they just make more errors. Yeah, it's a great question. So there is no way at the at the moment that we're aware of from a scientific perspective to reduce your sleep. Need to a certain extent. Let's say you need eight hours. You can compress. You're sleep by a little bit, which means that you're not gonna experience too many side effects. Um, with a small amount of sleep production for a period of time. Beyond that, there will be real objective impairment, and you can look at that a lot of different ways. You can look at somebody's reaction time, so their ability to attend to a signal there's something called the second Motor vigilance test, where it's basically you hold this ugly device in your hand. And when a signal comes onto a screen. You have to push a button as fast as you can and your ability to focus on that. Your ability to react slows down and more extensive that sleep deprivation is. You might even miss the signal all together. It might come upon to this screen and disappear within a you know, the allotted period of time, and you just miss it entirely. And so a really interesting learning from that is that when you're sleep deprived, you have the ability to focus. You just can't focus for very long. And you were mentioning a study where they looked at the psycho motor test and the type of food that they wanted to eat and didn't. Can you tell me a little bit about that? So this is not my work related to the seals. This is my research that I do, Um, and so it's a really interesting study. We had people come in for a baseline examination, and we did a variety of cognitive tests. We looked at the reaction time, memory, how they felt their mood, and then I gave them a break in the middle of the session, and during that break, I casually put out food, so I use something called intentional misdirection. So I didn't want them to be aware that I was really interested in what they were eating. Had them watch two videos while they were, uh, while they were eating. And then basically, they're the food choices were ostensibly healthy or not so healthy, so gummy bears or almonds and I would weigh and measure but what they ate from those bins before and after they came in. So I know exactly how many calories they ate, what they wear, that where it came from and at the very end of this. So that was basically baseline. And then a week later, we did the same thing under sleep deprivation. So did their decisions change on What I wanted to do is look at okay. How does reaction time and mood and memory All these things relate to what they actually eight and at the very end of the study, So now they were on blinded. I asked them rate how healthy you think these foods are? There were several different conclusions, but one impressive one really important. One is that people were more likely to eat foods that they rate is less healthy when they're sleep deprived, when their reaction time slows down when they're subjectively sleepy when they rate themselves. I'm very sleepy right now, and that's really important. So, you know, sleep loss can modify how we live in a lot of ways, and it could modify your goals to be healthy. And this is just This is one seemingly very important way. But how did it affect it? What was the difference when they were looking at perceptual when they were in the psycho vigilance test? Second vigilance test told him they weren't. They weren't sleeping, but I thought they were sleepy or vice versa. Yeah, so there there was. It wasn't a perfect correlation. So if you felt sleepy and your reaction time was slow, they didn't. They didn't perfectly court late. So sometimes some of the effects people like, Oh, I really feel sleepy right now. But their reaction time performance was was fine. In other cases, somebody react. Their reaction time was not very good, but then they felt fine. So you had kind of different situations that happened within the course of the study and what happened with the food? What would they tend to eat. Yeah, so when people felt sleepy, they would tend to eat. They would tend to eat more foods that they raided his low health right then when they didn't feel sleepy. But when they on this is really interesting. So when they were objectively sleepy, right? So when their reaction time was really slow, they would eat more height calorically dense food, Which means that there might be some sort of, you know, desire to really go after palatable foods when you are objectively sleepy. So, you know, I think there's a lot more research that needs to be done toe really understand what those findings mean, but it does add to the literature for sure. It's very interesting. I think that sleep is one of the most fascinating topics, and one thing that people that I don't really know even is how many hours of sleep I need a day s o. How do I identify how many hours of sleep I need a day? Yeah, it's a it's a It's a question that I probably get most frequently given my line of work. And it's not an easy answer. The amount of sleep that you need is actually contingent upon a couple of different factors. One of them is the time he spent in bed. But there's other factors that determine your sleeping, too. One of them that sounds kind of hokey is the type of light that you get during the day, evening and night. And so if you think about it, we evolved on a planet where we were outside. Most of the time. We got a lot of bright light exposure. And even though the light in this room doesn't seem that much more dim than outside, there's a really massive difference between the amount of photons that are entering your eye from the sun during high noon than what you get in an indoor environment. Now modern world, we spend our lives inside working at computers, and even though it just seems like there's adequate light for what we're doing, there's not a really strong signal that tells your brain it's date. It's daytime, and then that's the problem during the day at night. Then we're getting more artificial light, and that signal tells your brain okay, well, it's actually daytime when it should be getting more darkness going into the brain. So what? What's the effect of that? Well, it causes your circadian rhythm, which is this 24 hour process that will influence how wake you feel. And when you feel awake and when you feel sleepy, it'll it'll. It'll cause it to shift. So a really good way to think about this is if you were, you know, right now we're in San Francisco, you travel to Italy. That is a complete opposite time than it is here. Right there. They're sleeping or awake, and vice versa. But over the course of days of being there, you're going to adjust. And what is the signal that the your body and brain is attending to is light entering the eye and then signaling the great? And so that's a really good way to understand that concept and because of our modern lifestyle, too little light during the day, too much in the evening, where our rhythms shift and so that you know it's It's a bit of a complicated in a situation to explain, but the result is you have less wakefulness during the day and you have more bouts of insomnia or disrupted sleep at night and So the weighted I think do this is try to get outside for about 1/2 an hour. Day week wayto address this problem. Get outside for 1/2 an hour per day, at least. So this is one reason why exercise outside might be better than exercise indoors the same amount of exercise, Um, in at night. Dim environment lights also watched the tone of light. So amber toned light or incandescent light is going to be a better type of light in the evening than full spectrum blue light. Because blue light tells the brain that it's day and then at night, keep your room very, very dark. So you're saying that that your brain gets used to your knows when it's time to sleep based on photons entering the I. And, um, this is have anything to do with vitamin D? Oh, or is it simply just photons? So yes, so one of the primary components that let the butts the brain no when it should be sleeping and when to be awake is your light exposure over a period of time. Okay, there are some other factors as well. It doesn't. It's not related to vitamin D But that's another reason why it's good to get outside during the day. So, yeah. So what? What is it about the light that special? What is the Proton? What is makeup of this? Yeah. So, um, the things that matter are the intensity of light, the spectrum. So what? What color? And like I mentioned, blue Blue light is a signal that it is daytime. Um, your history. So how much light you got during during the day That that day? Uh, and let's see, So those are the ones that really focus on. So what I try to do is go for long walks during the day. If I have a phone call, get out, talk on the phone, do my exercise outside. But I really aimed to get at least 1/2 an hour of daylight exposure every day. Okay, So the goal here is to be able to identify is to help your body know when it's time for when it is daytime. Help it understand this daytime. And so I know some cool studies have seen. If you take a plant across the Atlantic, plant will suffer from jet lag in the same with the human being suffered from jet lag. It'll take a few. It'll start blooming at the wrong time, start and take a few days before the just and human beings are also suffering. Of course, from jet lag, I'm suffering from a right now. And, uh, is there a way that we can't like those Phillips lights, for example, that you can buy and put next to you that have white light that are supposedly useful for seasonal effective disorder? Yeah, Have you ever tested those? Or do you have any insight into how those affect you? Yeah, that's a good um, it's a good work around or hack. If let's say you're in a a climate that is kind of inhospitable to go outside during the day, it's really rainy, and it's it's cold. There are lights now that are used primarily originally for seasonal effective disorder that helped cause 11 problem that some people experience when they don't get adequate light, which happens often times during the winter and northern latitudes is they could get depressed can really affect mood. But you can also just use lights like this on a regular basis. So Phillips has something called the go light. It's a blue light generator. It generates light of a intensity of about 10,000. Lux Lux is a unit of light intensity, and you can use that several times a day if you can't get outside. And so getting outside is always preferable. There's other benefits to it as well. And if you can't, you can have one of these units by your desk. And that's going to make sure that your rhythm is more anchored versus attending to drift. And that drift is going to cause problems in how alert you feel, the quality of your sleep and quite a few other things. Your sleep wake cycle is just one thing that is under this 24 hour control. All hormones that are released are under the same sort of control. There's a lot of different functions that the body but are critical to proper functioning that have a 24 hour pattern. And light is that they call the primary circadian Zaid giver or time giver of that clock. The body clock. Yeah, so light is like really interesting and sleep is really fascinating to me because it seems like we've been sleeping in this mano face IC eight hour expected or less sleeping pattern for like, not even a couple 100 years, like much less than that. And I remember reading a lot about how Benjamin Franklin would write about his biophysics sleep. And that was the common way of the day that I think Ben Franklin would sleep for for a period time from seven till midnight and they would sit in his chair. That's it for total one. Hey would get. Then he would lay down again and go back to sleep around. When I am on, I find it really interesting because, like there's still comin in a few cultures, obviously some culture still do siestas. Napping is a really powerful way to catch up on some sleep, and then I always hear some interesting back and forth between sleep debt, and whether or not it's like one hour of missed sleep is one hour of sleep you actually have to catch up on or if it's more based on. If you miss, you know, several days of sleep, your body will start to catch up on a lot of sleep on and put it itself into REM sleep for longer and catch up on it and then start to taper off. Yet have we? Have you done any experiments that you've seen what happens over time? Sleep debt? Yes, so I have not. I've done that a little bit through my research, but that's just from one night. So the concept of sleep debt is Let's say you need eight hours of sleep, and this goes back to your question about how much sleep do you need? So I described one component that determines that. Which is this the timing of your biological rhythms? Of which light is the primary driver of that? The second factor is, Are you giving yourself enough time in bed to get the sleep that you need? Right? Let's say you need eight hours. They're not gonna get eight hours of sleep if you're in bed for six, right? So there is then, while that timing component could be modified by the you know your circadian aspect, um, everybody has their own sort of. I need this amount of time in bed per night, But that can change over the lifespan, and it can also change day by day, week by week if you're dealing with a lot of stress if you're finding an infection, if there's times where you actually need to sleep more and there's times where you may feel absolutely fine to sleep less so what I I'll finish up the answer about how much do you need? What I try to have people do is get complete sleep. So what does that mean? That your waking by on your own volition versus an alarm? All right, so you give yourself enough time in bed where you're more likely to wake up by, You know, just because your body wakes you up versus I woke up because I set this alarm. Okay, so that is one thing that I really encourage people dio and then I'm sorry. Remind me what was the last part here. The sleep debt. Okay, so So sleep dead. Is this concept that if you're not getting enough sleep on a night by night basis, then you are You accumulate this idea called debt, which would then build, build, build. So if you get let's say you need eight hours per night and you get night and then six the next and 60 next you'll have this debt that it continues to amass, and you'll need to sleep that off. And the scientific questions remain. You know. Is there a port for perfect correlation between an hour lost? You need to sleep an extra hour what happens over periods of longer, longer periods of time. So, let's say, 68 weeks. If you're not getting enough sleep, do you have changes to the brain that require longer periods of time to recover that or fewer? So there's some questions that we don't really know. Um, but we definitely have seen. If you let's a restrict people to four hours of sleep per night, and then you give them recovery sleep on the weekends. What do you see? They will sleep for 10 hours per night. First night, 10 hours again the second night, then maybe nine hours than eight. So it'll take several days before they get back to baseline. Also, if you look at the architecture of their sleep, the timing of the different sleep phases will happen. And in a different order you'll have more slow wave sleep and sometimes more ram. So there's actually a change in the architecture of sleep So sleep is doing its best to recoup this. You know, lost sleep. That that it got sleep is really interesting. I started Ah, journey and sleep. When I was in high school, I started doing Polly phase ex leader for a period of a few months, which was a little crazy. Polly, physics. Sleep is this? I do. This Superman schedule was like every four hours. I would do a 15 to 20 minutes, 30 minute nap and then train my body to go kind of directly into REM sleep. What happened was interesting. And it was all in the literature to Was that, um your body? What? My body was going into REM sleep, so I was getting of supposedly a sufficient enough sleep during this period of time. But there's ah few stages of sleep that I was skipping. And a lot of the chemicals of your body produces in those periods of time can be supplemented with grapes. So I had an intense desire to eat grapes at, like, all times while I was doing this Polly Physics sleep. I was really weird. I ended up quitting the schedule, obviously, because there's literally nothing to do in your high school student in, like 2:30 a.m. So I was like, What is the point of this? One of the one of the requests I get most often for my pavlak respond is Do you think that this could get me into Polly phase of sleep? Because I think a shock might wake me up more than like how long clock? So excited to see how how that works with my crazy friends who are doing Polly Physics sleep. Have you ever done any experiments? And Polly Basic sleep. So I've written about it. So, Polly, basic sleep is the idea where you typically Martin schedule You'll a lot One consolidated chunk for sleep. You sleep at night, right? And other cultures maintain a by physic pattern where they'll sleep mostly at night. Then we'll have a nap during the afternoon. This Polly basic idea is okay. Can you break that up into into more chunks? So you get a couple hours of sleep in a couple of hours of wakefulness, a couple hours of sleep, a couple of hours of wakefulness. That is an unusual pattern. You see that with the condition of narcolepsy um, narcoleptics are missing a key approaching in their brain that doesn't allow them to both. Stay awake for very long and to stay asleep for very long. So they're more like a cat, so they sleep a little bit. Then they're up there. They're awake for a little bit in these little bit by and that just keeps flip flopping that video yesterday somebody doing like a yoga workout just passed out. Glaze. Yeah, I thought that the goats goats to just fall over. Yeah, this thing in the world Yeah, they there's there's eggs. There's instances of in all domesticated animals of Miracle FC, so the U and that is called a caterp lactic attack. So narcoleptics suffer from extreme sleepiness there. Sleepy all the time. Yeah, and that's it's brutal. Caterp. Lexie is a bilateral loss of muscle tone in response to in the most emotional trigger. So you get surprised you have something tells a joke, and you actually become paralyzed. You enter into realms sleep which is not supposed to occur when you think about it. When you're in REM sleep, your body intentionally will paralyze you so you do not act out your dreams it's a it's is a favorable adaptation you do not want. And actually there's another condition called REM Sleep behavior disorder, where you do not paralyze yourself. And there's very funny videos of people acting out their dreams. And it's thought to be This might be a condition that's program or happens before people get Parkinson's disease. It's typically an older men, and a lot of the videos that I've seen are of former war veterans. That there. Now you know, you wake him up in your they're all hooked up to the sleep equipment, and there's a lot of different leads, you know, down the throat and eyes. It's uncomfortable to do a sleep study and they throw themselves out of bed and people will. What what were you, what was going on? And they were the cool. I was dreaming. I was in a U boat and somebody threw a grenade into the boat. And so I had to, you know, I had to get out. So anyway, that's that is a condition where you act out your dreams physically when you shouldn't narcolepsy. You go into paralysis when you're awake, and that means that you could tell me a joke or I could have some experience of emotion. And I could just all of a sudden, for both my left and right side, I'll start to lose control over my muscles. And that could be partial where I have weakness. Or it could be complete where I can complete collapse of the floor. So try to stay away from narco up. Yeah, but actually speaking narcolepsy. I was like, so the drug with dolphins for provincial, for example. Uh, it's a drug designed to treat narcolepsy, but it's often used as a smart drug. Have you ever seen any experiments with that? As related Teoh And I'm sure Navy seals probably experiment with this with how that effects variously patterns Do they actually require sleep? What happens when people start taking it s omon daffodils. An interesting drug. It was theoretically supposed to be an improvement upon things like amphetamines, which were. They don't simply work on how alert you are, but they also work on areas of reward and there's real serious consequences. Teoh taking them in an acute sense. There's nothing that will, um there are things that can mask the sense of sleeping is for a temporary period of time. But when they get out of your system, there's nothing that will obviate the need to sleep. So there's nothing that says OK, well, now if I take this instead of meeting eight hours per night, I only need six or the type of sleep that I missed. I don't need to recoup that. And there was some of thinking and the research that that might have been the case with modafinil for period of time, so that we thought that they that's what they thought, that, yeah, you might need less with Madonna. But that's not really the case, Um, and it still works on dopamine centers, which is one of the ways that I invented means work. It is kind of a complicated mechanism there. People seem to like, not understand it. It's like it's one of those like, not very understood drugs that seems to work. But no one's really sure why. It works for some people, but not others. Yeah, my, I think the best research on this has been from my friend Jonathan Weiser, who was at Stanford, and now he's at Washington State. So they did a study where they looked at modafinil and knockout mouse mice, where the knockout mice means that they will take a gene and that will silence it. So where they're looking at is the dopamine transporter, and when they knock that out than Madonna had no effect. So what that means, is that Okay, well, it's likely that Madonna was working on this transporter because otherwise, if it's not there, then there's no effect from the drug. But several on the company that brought this to market in United States. They were looking at it in all sorts of different systems in the brain and found there actually could be some. You know, efficacy or some of the efficacy of the drug to promote wakefulness might be coming from this system and this system in this system. So it was a bit confusing about how what's really going on. Most likely, it's the dopamine transport. Chemicals and Nero transmitters are super fascinating. I find it to be really interesting side of willpower and habits. It's like people tend to use amphetamines. I've seen people use amphetamines for the purpose of focus, for the purpose of getting stuff done, purpose being less, um, and I'm wondering about the willpower aspects of these drugs and, more importantly, the willpower aspects of sleep. How does sleep really affect your willpower? And how does it How does it really reflect itself? Yes. Oh, so, Well, willpower is thought to be an executive function or an executive task, which means the frontal cortex, which is a involved one of one of the parts of brain and have evolves Souness. So it za recent invention of the brain. It is, uh it helps to do strategic planning. So you can say OK, well, I want to achieve this goal. And therefore I want I need to create a plan. I need Teoh block out any stimulation that might try to interfere. I need to re strategize when I get new information, and that is a fairly unlimited ability, inimitable ability, ability of humans to be able to do that, particularly that degree will. Willpower is inexhaustible resource. So the more you are using that part of the brain, the less, um, you're able to then recall that utilize that part of the brain, and so you could be making decisions about all sorts of things like oh, what should I have for lunch, and it could impair your ability to make critical business decisions or whatever. You know, whatever you're working on later. And so one thing that will influence willpower is the availability of glucose. So if you, you know, right, usually around, you know mid afternoon after lunch, Sometimes people can start to feel, you know that their sluggish, mentally sluggish. Often then people will reach for some sugar, which is not often the best idea at all of my give you a quick boost. But there's a consequence. It's it's an unhealthy dietary pattern, so you don't want to pursue that, um, and find the sugar pattern interesting, because people will always tell their kids like, No, don't give many sugar. He's going to get a sugar high man is gonna get really tired, but they don't believe that it affects them as adults, but it does exactly the same. The child is just not as obvious, really. Hide it better, Yeah, yeah, sometimes sometimes. But when you start Teoh when you start to sleep. So I've noticed that, like I grew up thinking that I could get over sleep and I could fight back against sleep and you know you can't all research says you can't I don't have no really big on special, and I didn't sleep enough last night, and I totally feel different than the night before when I did sleep enough. And so when you do sleep, it's the idea is that replenishes your willpower? To some extent, it's like a good night's sleep is able to help you be able to choose what you want to do and be able to act better than rather than relying on instinct or relying on habit. How do you have any insight into how that works in the brain like I'm always like? It feels to me like like sleep should be evolutionary evolutionarily. It seems like a negative, like there's almost no benefit to sleep in the extent of like like I might get eaten by a tiger. Sleeping and some other animals have very weird and different sleep patterns, like, I think dolphins sleep with 1/2 of their brain open or when I open or such, so we can't think of a reason why do we sleep like me? Sleep? Yeah, So I was Alan Rack Shafran, who was one of the luminaries in the field of sleep medicine in the mid 19th century. That look that made the has the quote of saying, If there's we don't identify a real purpose to sleep, then it's one of the biggest mistakes that evolutions ever made because it takes up 1/3 of our life. Clearly, we all intuitively know that sleep is critical because we can experience the benefits of like, you're saying you go to bed and you just cannot think any further, and you wake up in the morning and you feel sharp. So what's happening during that time? Well, a lot of things there's There's a local sleep hypothesis. So the idea that the type of the break the parts of the brain that you're using during the day have a disproportionate amount of activity at night. So a friend of mine, Marcos Frank, did a study where they put a patch over cats, and so they're only taking in the world through one eye and because the optic track crosses, so if you cover this, I then this part of the brain would be more active. Are skill less active, and then this part of bravery more active during sleep. And so that was one of the first research that suggested. Okay, so the are our brain sleeping is in response to what we've been doing during the day. And that actually makes a lot of sense that all the different things that take place during the night are are acting in a way to kind of restore the body and the mind for next day functioning. And if you don't get enough sleep, which would I would again go to complete sleep, sleep until your body wakes up versus working up by an external means. Then you are, you know, truncating that process. And there's gonna there could be some consequences of that. Some of those that are well within your awareness and some of those air beyond your where it's like you're like, Oh, I feel this way. But some of them you're like, I'm acting, you know, objectively acting in a different way. But you don't even see it so that what we do see is that there's different types of fate activity, which is basically a certain brain wave in the frontal cortex. It was thought that the frontal cortex, which is where these will powers taking place is a very sensitive to sleep loss. And so if you don't get enough, then you're gonna have you're gonna have more of a intention, deficit, type of response to the world. And if you look at kids, kids now are I think it's, ah really serious problem within our culture with light and television and games and social laps. They're staying up later, and yet their bedtime is still early in the morning. And so they when you're starts like seven s, so they've got to get it before that. Now they when you're growing, you actually need more time in bed. And but because of the artificial stimulation through light through the social interaction, it can mask your sleepiness at night. So for a child and for adults, the way that it manifests is an inability to focus. And what does that look like? That looks like, you know, hyperactivity. It looks a lot like what we think of attention deficit. Now there might be alternative ways that attention deficit is is provoked. But this is, I think, a key key problem to address, and it has everything to do with our environment. What's very normal today is not normal for our brain. I saw I saw a recent study. It was on the top of Read it, so you know, it's absolutely true. But But I was reading through this. It was a pub med wink, and it was about it was like teenage angst, teenage irritability. And it basically said that a lot of the reasons that teenagers are so angsty and matters at that and they act like they're not just a d d but also irritable and unhappy and fight with their parents has to do purely would sleep. It's the fact that they just don't get high quality sleep. And that's true and completely makes sense. If you imagine Children these days, they're able to stay up later. There's a lot of Children days. I was one of them, and I still am. We were able to play video games and watch TV, and the light stimulation keeps us awake. And then we expect to get up early in the morning because we have to Yeah, how well, so respected to act. We have to be attention deficit disorder. We have to You have to have lose our ability to focus. Yeah, Yeah, totally. We know the those of the effects of sleep loss are very clear when you don't get enough for a certain period of time. Whatever your need is, then people that there is a panoply of different negative responses or alteration types of different responses. Sometimes it's not necessarily negative. You just start thinking and weird ways, and sometimes you can actually be a little more creative because there's less executive control, controlling your thoughts, and so you It might be kind of a good thing in some instances, but absolutely, I would agree with that that the lack of sleep is a really big problem for both Children and adults. And in my research and in many others, mood is one of the most sensitive measures to sleep loss. It takes less sleep loss for you to have an effect on your mood. So that is something that we really clearly showed in my last protocol. Yeah, so it's, you know, it was the last protocol, the last research product project that I did. We were we measured, among other things, mood. And it was just very, very sensitive to even subtle amounts of sleep loss. So I always run over time with you because I get so interested in sleeping, and so I want to give it to a couple of things. Time. Yeah. One thing is the ability to measure sleep. Um, I know you're wearing is a Fitbit force. It is? Yeah. Not you're getting a zinc allergy. No. Yeah. Like you to get recalled. Yeah. And I were the basis. Yeah. You've tested this before. You know, I'd love Teoh. Looks like a great company. Yeah, and both of these A really interesting because they measure that. Measure your sleep in particular patterns. Yeah. The force uses just an accelerometer. This guy uses accelerometer and heart rate, and they try to get patterns of light, deep and ram sleep. How accurate do you think these measurements are? Well, it's hard to say. I think if you have, if you can triangulate a couple of different signals like heart rate and then you know, lack of movement, you're probably going to get a little more accuracy in assessing what stage of sleep you're in. Eso? That's what Even when you go to a normal getting sleep study done at a university or a clinic. It's called a poly sonography. So multiple measures of sleep. And that's why you've got all these wires that attach to you. It's like, you know, how does anybody sleep under those conditions? But that's because it's hard to look at just one thing and know exactly what's going on. But having Mawr signals to them triangulate and say, OK, that we have more certainty that this mean, You know, this means that we're in this face. But you would think that being a sleep researcher, I would want to know all of the data. So tell me everything about my sleep, and it's funny. I have, ah, a little bit of a kind of a different perspective to it. What I care more about is your behaviors around sleep so sleep can change from night to night, depending on different processes. Even what happened last leak last week. If you're recovering from, let's say, you know, being a little bit ill, you might need to sleep a little bit. Maura. My change, your sleep architecture. What I want you to focus on are the behaviors that you can control what you can't get deeper sleep by squinting Carter, right? That's just that you can't control it that way. What you can do is make sure that you give yourself enough time in bed to get to sleep you need. When you can do is make sure that you're the timing of your sleep is also very consistent. So let's say you get eight hours per night, but that eight hours is shifting three or four hours every night. That's not ideal either. That's not going to yield the same degree of alertness or restorative capability that eight hours in a very consistent fashion would. And so I like to focus on timing and duration. Duration is how long in bed timing is. When is that sleep current, then secondarily. Then you can tell me a little bit about you know what's happening to my sleep architecture. But I'm honestly less interested in that because it's difficult to make sense of what's going on. So unless you're trying to assess a sleep issue like we're trying, we have the Seaview have sleep apnea. There's other condition that we need to attend, then sleeps gonna do its thing at night. Now, some people now having said that some people like that information and it engages them in their practice of sleep because they're getting more information on another group is going to be disengaged by because that information is not actionable or they make something out of nothing. Oh, I got this amount of ram or whatever. And now I need to do this, and that could be erroneous. So what I say is functional focus on actionable steps first. And then if you're interested for the deeper dive, you know, let let people do that if they would like, so does your work with dance plan or human no s Stop me. Are they using any of these features of sleep data and using it to determine any kind of, uh, any things that you should be doing any kind of correlations that are interesting? Yeah. So, um, so dance plan is company that I started a while ago, As I mentioned earlier, it's leveraging this loop model. So what we try to do is it's a health site. We try to help everybody live is an intelligent eater and enduring mover and a restorative sleeper. Those air aspirational content concepts. So the restorative sleeper wakes refreshed and feels alert all day. So that's what you want. And then how do you do that? Well, the things that matter for sleep, our timing, intensity and duration two of those air directional directly actionable. You can measure timing and duration through manual tracking or even using one of these devices. Pick, you know, pick the one that you'd like to use the most. Um, and then we created a health zone score. So the health own score is looking at a composite of a variety of different lifestyle metrics and letting you know if you were living in accordance with your own lifestyle goals. And by the way, forming some of those goals is also a really important step to being healthy as well. If you have a clear idea like I want to be in bed by 11 o'clock at night, that's you're really far in advance of a lot of people that really don't have any sort of goal. And so if I see my score where if, like I'm going to bed, my average over the last week is creeping up to 11 30 11 45 then I'll get a color coded score that says, OK, you're actually you know, you need to attend to this. And that's a great that That's what of feedback is really powerful so we can find this at dance plan. And we can also learn more about you at human OS. Stop me. Yes. So that is Ah, site that is going Teoh. It's coming soon. So I would say focus on dance plan right now, we're going to be pushing huge updates by November 3rd. So the site's gonna look a lot different than and then three human os stop me is basically the technology that I'm building and it's gonna power different different sites and communities. Great. Well, Dan, thank you so much for coming and spending time to hang out with us. Absolutely. In our next segment, we're gonna be the next session we'll be talking about. Actually, we're using them. Use e g head censor here toe, identify alpha beta gamma waves. So that be pretty interesting. Yeah, I know we're about to move on to meet a new person you J. Rondo's. But before we move on, I want to take maximum two questions from the audience. If anybody has a question. Raise your hand. Sure. Um, are there any, um, problems with having getting too much sleep? I mean, I've seen studies that correlate to much sleep with other problems, but is that just correlation? Or is that cause yeah, it's a great question. So, um, a lot of epidemiological research which looks at a population and says, OK, let's let's look at a couple different factors. Sleep time and health outcomes will notice the U shaped kerf, which means that if you get less sleep than a certain you know optimum, then you have more health issues and then it improves. But when you start to get more sleep on the other end, then you start to see health issues start to increase again. So then the question is, Well, does that is that a problem of sleep, or are there other problems within you that are causing you to sleep more? And the answer to that is unknown. So it is correlation als not necessarily causation. What about if we all live in somewhat sleep deprived condition because of modern world? So what if you slept through nine hours per night for three weeks in a row? and then it slowed. It's kind of whittled down. Plus, you all have your own individual sleep need. So one really important thing is you can't apply population averages. Prescriptive. Lee, you can't say. Well, this is what we found. Overpopulation. Therefore, you need eight hours and not nine, right? It's just shows the dynamics when you look at a population, but you can't say Well, therefore, I need this. This is no good. This is right. You still have to figure out your own. And you know your own personal need. You talked a little bit about working with the Navy seals who have to sleep in sometimes very difficult situations. Yeah, I was curious What sort of sleep techniques or habits had do they utilize in order to continue to get the appropriate amount of sleep in order to function? Yeah. So a lot of Polly physics sleep was researched, which is this idea of actually getting, um What? I didn't actually complete that thought earlier. So probably facing sleep is breaking up sleep into multiple chunks. The popular current concept of poet basic sleep is attempting t get less sleep by do it by using this kind of alternative pattern, so sleeping in 20 minute segments five times a day. Now, you're kind of hacking the, um, sleep process so you're not actually getting all the benefits that sleep would convey, But you're making your your attending most specifically to something called sleep pressure. So basically, you get a lot of restoration and feel better quickly. But you're kind of cheating yourself because you're not getting all the benefits. So in the military, they actually looked at that. So where they found is that if you're on 100 our mission, your performance at out between hours 90 and 100 is gonna be improved if you had a chance to sleep 10 minute increments here, there and there versus none at all. And so what I would say is, always I always try to get complete sleep and in times where let's say, you know, things come up and you've got a deadline or some something happens where you're you're in a place where you can't get this leak that you need. Try to take a little short naps and you'll have improved vigilance, which means alertness over the next six period hours, depending on how long your nap waas. And But I would say Don't use that as an attempt to get less sleep on a regular basis. Use. It is a way to temporarily improve your vigilance when you are up over a short window of time. Dan, it's always a pleasure talk to you. Thank you so much, everybody. It was such a great time. I we have. No, we'll have more chances to talk about this. I never run out of questions about sleep lived to, And I know I feel like I would definitely have better questions that I got enough sleep every day. So maybe I'll create my biggest questions coming up for you later on after this show is gonna be about not being about how to optimize my environment and just about 1000 other ones. I got a little any time. Especially great. Thank you. Great. Thank you so much. Everyone check out dance plan dot Com and human os Stop me. Thank you so much.